Whilst I respect your personal beliefs on this website I do not want them in my face when I log in here. I just done a test joining a faith website. I introduced myself as Julia an open and proud Transexual. I was blocked.

Sorry but it has to work both ways! If they cannot accept me as a member for who I am (not that I want them to) then how can you expect me or others here to accept your beliefs? They are your beliefs and that is the way they should stay. Please remember this is a Transgender website and there are thousands of faith sites you can go to but , you will most likely have to lie about yourself or you will get blocked too. It is my guess that is why you bring it here.

 

Julia.

Talia brings it elsewhere too. If we want to be accepted in society, that includes the church for many. Generally speaking, I wouldn't suggest that the internet is a good place to join a random faith group. I would expect that they likely didn't even believe you or simply couldn't handle the idea.
Like I have said, I believe that as much as talk of religion and faith brings pain for some, it can also bring love, healing, and acceptance for others.
There are "religious" people who accept ALL for who they are, I know some.
As trans, I think we know the dangers of painting all with the same brush.
This post was edited by M G at May 1, 2014 9:50 PM BST

Well Madeleine if they don't believe the truth then they are not worth wasting time on . It was drummed into me as a child thou shalt not lie! I don't "they do" It said all welcome , I guess that means as long as you are not Trans or Gay but it never stated that. Talia should leave it elsewhere it will not work here.

About 3 years ago I started to write a book about my life , I stopped writing just before I got to the 12 years old part. I printed about 6 copies of what I had wrtten and my friends read it and begged me to finish it , I could'nt. One of those friends sent it to a publisher and they (publisher) asked me to finish it. It was not going to be aimed at other trans people . I started with the intention of wanting to let the public know how hard life can be for us. I had designed the cover and a very good title which took me about 5 seconds to think up. Maybe I should try again I still have the publishers contact details.

I have never looked upon being born Transexual as an afliction but , being born a Catholic was.

Julia.

And another idea anyone can try. Stand outside a Church , if 100 people walk in ask them all if they believe in ghosts. 99 Will most likely say no. A perfect example of hypocrisy.

In the church they will all say , in the name of the Father the Son and the holy "GHOST" Oh thats ok then its a holy one.

Julia,
You are correct that they aren't worth wasting time on. Sadly though, you can't necessarily expect a faith website (or very many websites at all, really) to believe what you say and take you at face value without knowing you in a situation like that. The anonymity of the internet and the number of crazy people out there make it difficult. To just arrive and introduce yourself that way might be suspect. We as trans people are not yet adequately visible in society. It is sad but true. Like you, I'd like to see a world where being trans is as insignificant as being cis. You wouldn't see a cisgender person arrive and say "Hi, I'm Julia and I'm female". That said, I think it's very unfortunate that any group claiming to be accepting of all would block you so easily. Remember too however, that all that would take is ONE individual with the power to block you from the group to exert their personal beliefs and block you. Further, I acknowledge that there are many, many, many more who would also block you. There are many church or religious communities filled with people who would not accept us and would instead promote intolerance and hate. As I keep saying though, we must be wary of painting all with the same brush and as much as talk of religion and faith can bring pain for many, it can also bring love, healing, support, and acceptance
: )

edit: I'm not sure I put this all too well, please have patience with me here, okay?
This post was edited by M G at May 1, 2014 6:38 PM BST

One must also be wary of literal translations of scripture.

I think now might be a good time to introduce some ideas I find very helpful. They are taken from "The 7 habits of highly effective people". If you are interested look up all 7, but I'd like to highlight (habit 5 especially)...
Habit 4: Think Win-Win
Genuine feelings for mutually beneficial solutions or agreements in your relationships. Value and respect people by understanding a "win" for all is ultimately a better long-term resolution than if only one person in the situation had got his or her way.
Habit 5: Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood
Use empathic listening to be genuinely influenced by a person, which compels them to reciprocate the listening and take an open mind to being influenced by you. This creates an atmosphere of caring, and positive problem solving.
Habit 6: Synergize
Combine the strengths of people through positive teamwork, so as to achieve goals no one person could have done alone.
No one should be leaving the site over this. No one.
It takes patience and a willingness to make things better not just for yourself, but others too sometimes. This in turn, ironically, can make things better for yourself too anyway.
This post was edited by M G at May 1, 2014 9:53 PM BST

Sadly many in the church miss the real message of God's grace and acceptance. That , to me, is the message conveyed in the Gospel story of Jesus. Too often religious beliefs get subverted by personal agendas that pick and choose to justify personal opinions. There are many good people among the faithful (any faith) and the unbelievers. God loves us all, I believe.

Thanks for sharing your voice Sheri.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost has nothing to do with the ghosts that haunt houses or say "boo" Julia, of course you know that.

It should be said here too that Talia is not looking to convert or to force her views on anyone.

I'm NOT posting this to preach or to convert anyone, but for perhaps some balance and perspective.

http://www.united-church.ca/exploring/trans

I myself am spiritual, but I'm not religious.
This post was edited by M G at May 1, 2014 10:09 PM BST

Madeliene and anyone else reading this.

I love this website. Over the past days we have seen a group of us pull together to save it. Now we have the one thing that comes back to divide us. I am sorry but this is a fact , religion does not belong on a Transgender website because we are not welcome on theirs , that is the only reason they bring it here.

We all have one thing in common here "We are Transgender" . Mix them together and what do you get? You witnessed it here today.

Crissie cannot say what she wants to and others dare not join in this. Being Transgender and religious is fine but , it does not deserve  place of its own here , there are plenty of other places to go talk about that stuff.

Anyone who knows me well will tell you I hate segregation. I hate it to the point that I staked my own reputation here in Ipswich and my home County of Suffolk to be against any form of gay or trans bar , there is no need for it. I do not want to segregate faith or religious groups and have no need to , they are doing it themselves , they are doing it here. I cannot keep my eyes closed to this.

 

I really do not care if anyone here believes they have fairies at the bottom of their garden. One thing I do care about is this website and the wonderfull people that are here.

If you look back over the years of forum posts here you will see my arguments , there have been many believe me. I do not argue for fun , I do it to prove a point and because I care.

I have been fighting people all of my life! Not with violence with my voice. It is proud voice and has been aired across 8 Counties in the East of England and around the world on the internet. I even sometimes hear it promoting future or current radio programs. I think for some person at the BBC to want to use my voice to promote something they must hear something in it , I guess it is passion. I also have "Compassion".

 

I had to get out and clear my head of this mess today. I cannot be here with this going on. No I am not leaving and my name and image will stay. I cannot look in here and see this going on. To put it bluntly I think it is just taking the piss , it is taking the piss out of what we have pulled together to save and is taking the piss out of Katie. Maybe Katie should ask some religious or faith websites if they will promote her site? Free of charge of course. Now that is a joke on its own.

Maybe Katie can ask if she can set up a Trans group on their sites too! You know as well as I do what answer she will get.

Sheri! God loves us all does he? Tell that to the people in this world dieing through lack of food or water. Go tell it to the innocent people being killed in wars caused by religion. Tell it to my good friend whos 10 year old daughter died Easter Sunday "She will flatten you" The starving people will even find the strength to flatten you. You could say God loves you , here chew on a bible! They are so starving they would eat it.

 

I am done.

 

Take care all , Julia xxx

This post was edited by Former Member at May 1, 2014 10:57 PM BST

"I love this website. Over the past days we have seen a group of us pull together to save it. Now we have the one thing that comes back to divide us. I am sorry but this is a fact, religion does not belong on a Transgender website because we are not welcome on theirs, that is the only reason they bring it here."

Julia, I believe you know how much respect I have for you, how much I care about you, how much I care about everyone and how much I would never want to hurt anyone or make them uncomfortable. Perhaps we can agree to disagree? It need not divide any of us. You say it is a fact that religion doesn't belong and I would call it an opinion. A valued and respected opinion, but an opinion none the less. You say that one group doesn't belong on one because the other isn't welcome on another but it doesn't work that way. It is not a "tit for tat" situation. That sounds a bit like an eye for an eye type thinking and all that does is make everyone blind. Seek first to understand, then to be understood...it isn't always easy I know.
So instead, are we to give in to dividing when we could've united, despite differences of opinion and beliefs that should not be insurmountable? Can we not simply respect one another's different viewpoints and co-exist? I think that is sad. We deny people freedom to be who they are and express their beliefs here? Of all places, here? That is sad. Even if "they" brought it here because it wasn't welcome elsewhere, is this not somewhere that can live up to truly being accepting of all, despite their differences? Are transgendered people not allowed to be religious or express themselves as who they are? It does sound like segregation wins.
"God" doesn't let the hungry starve, doesn't allow wars, and doesn't help football players win football games either. It doesn't work like that.
I have to admit that my caring goes beyond my ability to communicate here, so as much as I wish things were different, I'm going to do my best to let this go. I don't want to make you or anyone else uncomfortable, I don't want to bring pain.
I guess I'm done too.
Sincerely and with love and acceptance for ALL,
Madeleine
This post was edited by M G at May 2, 2014 1:18 AM BST

I have to say, that I find this divisiveness distateful. Julia - you have your agenda. You want to prove points, but indoing so, it seems to me that you require others to agree with you. Not very inclusive is it, on a site which tires to promote social inclusion, even for Christians?

If Talia wants to invite others to her view of sprituality, why should she not. Think on what Fritz Perls had to say

I do my thing and you do your thing.
I am not in this world to live up to your expectations,
And you are not in this world to live up to mine.
You are you, and I am I,
and if by chance we find each other, it's beautiful.
If not, it can't be helped.
(Fritz Perls, "Gestalt Therapy Verbatim", 1969)

Oh, and I meant to add if you don't like what Talia has to say, spare yourself the pain by just not going there.

Amanda Bruce said:

Oh, and I meant to add if you don't like what Talia has to say, spare yourself the pain by just not going there.

Hi Amanda, thanks for your input. If I add anything on this topic, I'm going to try to remember to keep it here or at least off the main page. To update my own comments, and to be fair, I think Julia had expressed more of a willingness to co-exist here earlier. I think her (and others) biggest concern was that they didn't want to have to see any references to religion or faith on the main page...I tested a few settings with Talia and I think it may be possible to accommodate those wishes for anyone who just doesn't want to see it at all.
This post was edited by M G at May 2, 2014 12:30 PM BST

"Sorry but it has to work both ways! If they cannot accept me as a member for who I am (not that I want them to) then how can you expect me or others here to accept your beliefs? They are your beliefs and that is the way they should stay. Please remember this is a Transgender website and there are thousands of faith sites you can go to but , you will most likely have to lie about yourself or you will get blocked too. It is my guess that is why you bring it here."

 

Julia this wa syour quote. It does work both ways. If you cannot accept me, what am I to think about your hypocrisy ? The church does not have a monopoly on hypocrisy.

I think if trans groups such as this one block religious groups, or individuals who "believe", or even discussion of the subject, then they become as bad as the religious ones who will not accept what they mistakenly see as our "lifestyle choice".
So as far as I'm concerned please feel free to talk about gods and other aspects of religion, please feel free to set up groups for trans christians or whatever you like.
And please allow me to feel free to say how silly I think the whole notion of religion is.
That, I believe, is working both ways.
xx

Religion does not belong here, doesn't deserve a place here? There are plenty of other places for it? That's called segregation is it not? "They" are doing it themselves, "they" are doing it here? Who now? Perhaps "they" have done it here in the past, but that was not and is not Talia's intention. Nor would it be the intention of many of the others here who might share religious views. I know though too that there are plenty of religious people who do like to push their views on others.

Wars are not caused by religion, they are caused by people who abuse religion.

I acknowledge that organized religion has one hell of a lot to answer for. I can understand, from a distance, how people could not want to see it let alone have anything to do with it. I think having it easy enough to find here, but hard to find by accident might be a good compromise? That's why I wanted to help find settings to allow groups to be easily found, but content off the main page.

We all want to prove our points. The key is to temper it with a willingness and an ability to see things from someone else's point of view. When we do this, we all stand to gain from it. It doesn't have to mean we ultimately agree, but we can enhance mutual respect and understanding, and we can all become stronger for it.

Ok where do I begin? [mod edit: 4 lines removed]

 

I was born into a catholic family , I was sent to a catolic school , I was sent to church every Sunday. At the age of 10 my father was killed at work. I was told at school god needed him more than us , us being , my mother 4 brothers and one sister. At the age of 10 even I knew that was bull sh*t.

At the age of 12 I was held back by force after school by a catholic teacher , I was locked in the woodwork room and both of my hands were put in a vice. A grown man whom I was supposed to be in the care of then said to me "Think you are a girl do you"? . I am not going to go into detail what he done to me , part of that was on the comments page yesterday. After he had finished his filthy act of "faith" upon me he hit me very hard around my head. I was told to go and pray for "MY" sins . Yes "MY" sins , my sin was being honest about who I was.

 

I had missed the only bus home so had to walk 3 miles. Upon my return home my mother asked why I was late , she could see blood coming from my hands and wrists and a mark on my face , she assumed I had been fighting so she gave me a good beating to end my day with. One thing she could not see was the blood coming from my rear end caused by the teacher.

So with your psychological hat on you please tell me why I would welcome any form of religion hitting me in the face when I log in here? Because that is what started this. I want no pity or sympathy for what happened that day , it is useless , I just remember that day as if it were yesterday as soon as I hear god or religion mentioned.

 

There are places to go and talk and preach and websites for so called believers THIS IS A TRANSGENDER WEBSITE . Yes all are welcome but I do not want to see it or hear it. Again I say why do religious or faith groups try to form on sites like this? Because if they go to a religious or faith website and disclose they are trans or gay they are not welcome there , in fact they have to lie about themselves there to be accepted.

You have the nerve to say "My hypocrisy". This will not be history in 50 years time it will still be going on. Religion and LGBT do not mix.. I also stated that I bet everything that I own and my life savings that at this very minute a child somewhere in this world is being sexually abused whilst in the "Care"of a religious or faith teacher/preacher. The church is rife with it , faith schools are rife with it. Religion is an infestation of the mind.

Again! I stated religious or faith groups do not need to segregate themselves , they do a good job of that together. They cause the segragation by what they do and what they stand for. If they want to worship a nothing that is up to them. If they think the sexual abuse of children is ok and continue to support the groups that do it then in my book it is as good as saying "Its all in the name of god". Yes there are good honest people with beliefs but how do we tell the difference with so many lies being told? .

 

Madeliene! May I ask why you are the mouth piece for Talia? Has she not got a voice?. Here is your perfect example of division. Your attempt to explain away her views on and your own views on myself in this thread leaves me wondering who my friends are. No more PMs saying you are sorry I do not want to hear it.

 

My opinion or anyone else's opinion! My opinion is god is a nothing. I am sick of this god loves us all crap. No , the non existent god does not start wars it is the poisoned minds that do it , poisoned by that word god.

If this non existent god is so loving and powerfull then why are people starving? All they need is rain to make crops grow. That must be to much to ask god for , just let them continue to die they are only humans and god is love , am I right? Come on tell me , its what keeps getting bloody preached.

 

In the UK the church of Engand and others have a higher turn over in cash every year than ICI . I walk past churches and see signs begging for money because they need a new roof or whatever , we need £150.000 please help us. Is that not being hypocritical? With hundreds of millions in the bank and shares asking the poor for more money , and the fools fall for it all in the name of god.

As for others opinions on this or myself I really do not care . My care is for my true friends and care in my commuity I live in.

Crack a joke on here about god and see what happens! Oh its ok to crack jokes about anyone or anything but not that god thing no one ever see's. There is not even a place for sense of humour where god is concerned.

Fly planes into buildings and kill and maim thousands of innocent people all in the name of god but never crack a joke about god.

Stand on a street in London and hack body parts off an innocent man all in the name of god but, never crack a joke about god.

Put bombs all over the world and kill and maim innocent people all in the name of god but , never crack a joke about god.

My opinion and it is my opinion . God is one big joke but just take a good look around , mention religion and no one is laughing.

 

This post was edited by M G at May 7, 2014 2:32 PM BST

I am not speaking for Talia herself, but in support of people with different views than myself. If you can't understand that religious or faith views are not all the same I don't know what to say. I don't understand why you insist on painting all with the same brush.

I don't believe Talia had or has any intention of causing trouble. Further, I'm not trying to pull her into something that she never asked for.
This post was edited by M G at May 2, 2014 9:51 PM BST

I don't dispute that organized religion has one HELL of a lot to answer for.
I know that there are good people of faith too. People who love and accept all. I know some myself.
This post was edited by M G at May 2, 2014 9:59 PM BST

Fundamentalist extremists do not represent true people of faith.
Rapists are sick, sick, sick people...and the devil's spawn you might say...and yes, organized religion has one HELL of a lot to answer for.
This post was edited by M G at May 2, 2014 9:56 PM BST

I'm opening this topic for one last comment. I don't understand what all the fuss is about. I'm not like anyone else and no one else is like me either. Religion and religious politics have no place at GS. Or do they? It's hard to limit coversation even if the outcome is less than desirable for the good of the site. Do we invoke rules of conduct for some and not for others? It's a hard call to make. Because this thread was closed do we now close the group that inadvertantly caused a few of us to recite our opinions? Discussions regarding God will continue despite what I can close or leave open. I agree that people need to be judicious in aproaching a subject such as this but at the same time I saw no reason to close the thread. Crissie please write me, I will leave the tread as I found it....Closed.:(

have consulted with Crissie, thread re-opened...for now

let us all keep this cool and hopefully productive, okay?

: )

This post was edited by M G at May 7, 2014 2:37 PM BST

Religion..............I'm so glad I'm an atheist. 

When we all realize that we all have far more in common than we'll ever have that's different, discussions like this get a lot easier. It still isn't easy though, especially for topics like this. As I've quoted before: "Seek first to understand, then to be understood" - Stephen Covey (have a look at his site):

https://www.stephencovey.com/7habits/7habits-habit5.php

or the Wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Habits_of_Highly_Effective_People

If you are at all interested in this forum topic and want to post, please be willing to put an honest effort into understanding others point of view, especially those who may seem (or in fact are) most different from yours. It is my personal belief that religion and transgender can mix. I see no reason why trans people should be excluded from it any more than they should be excluded from anything else in life. So yes, I believe it does belong here, for those who want it. That said, I also know how emotionally charged up and volatile the mere mention of faith or religion can be, and so I support the idea of making it easy to find here for those who seek it, but hard to find by accident for those who don't. There are many in religious communities who seek to push their views on others, and I have no tolerance for that. But there are also many who have no interest in being so "in your face" about it either. Some people have very negative views on religion. I can understand and respect that. It can bring about thoughts of rejection, hurt and terrible pain and suffering. Organized religion has one hell of a lot to answer for. So do those individuals who seek to twist and corrupt religious ideals for their own gain, or out of ignorance and fear. At the same time, religion can be a source of acceptance, love and healing for others, and even an integral part of their self acceptance as a trans person. I have witnessed both sides. I just hope that others can acknowledge and respect that two very different sides exist. Sincerely, Madeleine p.s. My apologies for re-stating much of what I've said before. I have done so for both for the benefit of those who may not read everything and to (hopefully) better organize and state my opinion.

This post was edited by M G at May 7, 2014 6:50 PM BST

I don't seek to impose my opinions on anyone here (or elswhere) for that matter.  However, neither do I appreciate whatever personal beliefs (religious or otherwise) of  mine or of other members being publicly trashed!

 

ANYONE on the transgender spectrum needs acceptance and support not having their beliefs ridiculed.  I shall watch this with interest, while I consider my future here.  If tolerance and acceptance on all sides do NOT emerge, than I shall know what to do.  I think Madleine's post is a clearer plea for the same thing.