July 6, 2009 11:34 AM BST
Sheeeeeesh, ''MIGHT'' can be assimulated with the word 'IF'' Given the right genetic engineering IF it was available, Pigs MIGHT fly.
Ref Steffys post, Firstly, Mr Bellringer is a proffessor in urology, and has as private practices at the Wimbledon Parkside hospital, another one in Central London and heads up the CX gender surgery team at CX, Probably one of the UK's top surgeons in his field. The bladder is a bit like the stomach, it expands and contracts to accomodate input, never heard of hormones causing shrinkage, if somone has this problem I would suggest
its otherwide related.
Libido, being affected by mones, not in all cases. so cancel Will as being a definative.
All the mights of encouragement, Marsha is quite correct, bless her, all the treatments handed out to girls transitioning rely on the side effects of these drugs, I'm not aware of any designer drugs soley dedicated to M to F transitioning, (obviously not enough returns, money wise, to invest in the research and development of such drugs.
Further to the might be plus side effects there are many more negative side effects that occur. This is why, a full physical medical check up, blood testing etc should be carried out prior to embarking on a hormone regime, Regular tests and monitoring so that the combinations, types and dosages can be more suitably tailored to ongoing treatment to gain maximum safe results and minimise detrimental health problems that might occur.
Just one of the negative side effects one MIGHT come across is ME, Myalgia Encephalomyelitis, Cronic fatigue syndrome from which seems I have been suffering for some time, Although this has not been linked directly to my homone regime. Although I eat a very healthy balanced diet, my red cell blood count is lower than normal, this could also be related to occasional sessions of binge drinking, so we will have to see.
As to the losing of body hair, depends on each individual, same with breast development and all the other mights. I saw a very interesting programe on Warewolf syndrome, where children as young as 6 have humungous hair growth, all over their faces and bodies, several of these were placed on HRT and monitored for some considerable time, and the varying treatments were found to have no noticable lasting effect in restricting or reducing hair growth at safe dosages.
I have heard so many funny stories in the chat room, Like 6 months on hormones and being able to lactate, the ability after surgery to gush copious amounts of fluid upon orgasm, copious I take to mean a least a cup full? Somone being refered for hormones so they can develope breasts. but wanting to revert back to a male role when they achieve their aims and find a woman to marry that wants a man with breasts, On several occasions I have been pm'd in the chat room, individuals not satisfied with the speed of their progress, asking me if the mones I am on are only available privately because they want to look like me. Ar'nt these people geting the right information and guidance from their specialists?
Now we go onto the mones change brain waves, This is unproved, If you are diagnosed with GID and transitioning, then as you move along through the varying stages you will adopt the role of female and start hopefully thinking and reasoning more like a woman, Several occasions I have heard people doing this claim, that they will remain hetro prefering women?? WTF, Logically if you think like a woman and ''IF'' the hormones are taking effect, you will logically be looking to form relationships with a man, to me that would make for being HETRO. otherwise a person would class themselves as a latent lesbian. Not that I'm saying you should be either, we are all different, i know several girls that are completely asexual.
I also saw another programme regarding attachments to the DNA chain, I won't pretend to understand it, but basically, research has shown that attachments to an individuals DNA stucture makes certain people more libable to smoke, to become alcoholics, render them more susceptable to varying diseases. and induce latent homosexuality, therefore it could be concluded that there is an attachment that induces GID and leanings towards
transexualism and gender dysphoria,
Oh and to the person with the two children that came back to me, two days later after the discussion on Reifensteins and AIS, stating they had been to the doctors the day before and been diagnosed with the same condition, I would ask your wife who the childrens father is?
Everybody is different, one persons cure could be another person poison. a case of rush in now repent at leisure.
xxXCristineXxx
July 6, 2009 12:34 PM BST
I'll add something: never trust the word of anyone who binge drinks... LOL
Actually its as well to remember that the 'estrogen' we take is not the same as natural female estrogen...so whether its derived from vegatables/horse pee or a chemical works it ain't the same ...so logically it will/may/could have different effects on different people.
re the bladder shrinkage theory I have to say 'why not?'...if penis and testicles and Cowpers Gland and Seminal vesicles diminish then just maybe everything in the genito-uro area changes...and for that matter are there any changes in the muscles around the groin/lower abdomen? We certainly lose top body muscles so why not lower too? Has anyone ever figured out how to check? Has anyone ever felt it necessary to check all the tiny body changes that occur in sexchange?
I had an awful dream last night...I was having to move the washing machine and got some grease on my fingers that ingrained and I couldn't scrub it out even with hot water...LOL ...not the sort of dream I want to be having...
Marsha, can you think of anything else I should add somthing I neglected to say other than the rubish???? I have already written, lol.
Changing my name
signed, ......what the hell do I know..
Oh yes, a conundrum, yesterday over the space of a couple of hours, I ingressed 1.5 ltrs of 7 up, some several hours later went for a pee, gubber I neglected to return it to the bottle just to measure just how much my bladder did hold, but it was definantely more than 500cl. The only thing I am grateful for is that I did'nt have a sneezing fit in the meantime. But I would suggest that James Bellringer does know what he is talking about.
signed....what the hell do I know.
PS, the person having their surgery next week to be carried out by doctor Supporn at his LA clinic, erm, i would suggest you alter your travel itenary.
There's a lot been said on this thread that I can't be bothered to comment on, I apologise for my laziness, but I must take issue with one point made by Rose:
“The 'estrogen' we take is not the same as natural female estrogen..."
Premarin, ethinylestradiol and others are not the same, but I take bio-identical estradiol and that IS the same, hence the name.
Its molecular structure is exactly the same as human estradiol, the only thing that MAY make a difference is the fact that natal females produce substantial amounts in their bodies, while we must find a way of getting it inside of us.
Bio-identical estradiol, also known as 17-Beta estradiol (as is “human” estradiol) includes such brand names as Estrofem, Elleste, Zumenon, Oestrogel. Any claims that “herbal” alternatives are bio-identical estrogen are unequivocally FALSE.
xx
July 7, 2009 12:49 AM BST
Few minutes to spare so, one other point I’d like to pick up on:
“It (oestrogen) will give decreased libido”
I don’t believe oestrogen directly decreases libido. Nor do I believe testosterone is responsible for creating libido for that matter.
What often happens with pre-ops on oestrogen is that as testosterone is reduced (an inevitable effect of taking oestrogen alone) erectile function is impaired. It’s rather more difficult to achieve orgasm without an erection, so many people just give up trying. Obviously this sounds like lack of libido caused by taking oestrogen, and yes, it kind of is.
The point is, male genitals need testosterone to function properly. The oestrogen isn’t directly reducing libido, it is reducing testosterone, resulting in an “apparent” loss of libido.
However, if you go to a good SRS surgeon you have a good chance of experiencing sexual pleasure post-op. You no longer need to achieve an erection to orgasm, sexual function and libido are restored. Your testo is lower than it ever has been, and you can be on as high a dose of oestrogen as is safe, and your libido should be just fine, just like any natal female.
Ergo, oestrogen does not reduce libido per se, it merely causes problems while you are in a state of limbo – being physically male with the hormonal make-up of a female.
I know that some post-ops don’t have good sensation or can’t achieve orgasm, and I am really sorry for them, I don’t know how to say that without sounding patronising but I honestly mean it. But I, and several other girls I know have no such problems.
Sex, actually, is bloody brilliant.
I take plenty of oestrogen, all the sexually active post-ops I know do too; lack of libido is NOT an issue!
xx
Now now Stephanie... don't get all defensive on us...Bellringer hasn't transitioned so he cannot know personally...and as the prostate is right next to the bladder it seems perfectly reasonable that the bladder could shrink too...but who has ever done pre and post-hormones checks on bladder size/volume/holding ability? No-one - but no doubt there are millions of examination of dead bladders and millions of operations/ultrasounds on living bladders at some point but that doesn't provide conclusive proof of Natalie being wrong and Bellringer being right...not that it really matters who is right and who is wrong cos the fact is that when we gotta pee we gotta pee...
July 7, 2009 10:02 AM BST
Nope Lucy, just been studying that and the scientific results are that molecular composition of the various estrogens are not identical to natural female estrogen...hence they may have different effects.
Only way to get bio-identical estrogen would be to tap into the various glands on GGs that produce the natural stuff...
testosterone was first isolated by processing a mountain of bull testicles...presumably someone has processed a mountain of cow ovaries to isolate estrogen?
nothing that comes out of a factory can be totally natural...not that it matters cos the only people who get natural estrogen are lesbians or men into oral sex with women. But lets not go there or we get into the realms of B-R-S-Syndrome.
July 7, 2009 10:09 AM BST
actually of course, when I switch my brain on I realise the prostate is under the bladder so if it shrinks: now does it shrink in height or width or all ways?
Shrinking prostate would allow the bladders to fall or rest lower into the abdomen and the other stuff to squash it into a smaller space and along with the changes the total space available for expansion might be so reduced as to give the smaller volume that Natalie says...again there is no real way of checking except perhaps by super accurate ultrasound/MRS/CT scans etc.
When I had my bladder scan the image was so blurred I couldn't see how they could accurately measure it...but never mind..we are stuck with the bladders we have at this moment in time...
and as for the accuracies of scans and ultrasound they told me I had a fast devoloping large cyst on my left undecided but when they cut me open they found you a tiny one in healthy tissue...
Well you have my attention Rose, that’s the first time I’ve heard it said that bio-identical hormones are not bio-identical, if that
is what you are saying; I wasn’t referring to “various estrogens”, but specifically bio-identical. A Google search or two will find hundreds of thousands of pages saying that molecular structure is the same. I’ll just post one link here, because I’m not disagreeing with you – I don’t claim to be an expert, so I’d like to see what it is you have read, if it’s on the internet that is. Could you post a link?
Here’s the sort of thing that I’ve been led to believe, taken from
https://www.health.harvar[...]nes.htm
“Bioidentical hormones — hormones that are identical in molecular structure to the hormones women make in their bodies.”
And from the same source:
“Technically, the body can’t distinguish bioidentical hormones from the ones your ovaries produce. On a blood test, your total estradiol reflects the bioidentical estradiol you’ve taken as well as the estradiol your body makes. On the other hand, Premarin is metabolized into various forms of estrogen that aren’t measured by standard laboratory tests.”
So this claims that the body can’t tell the difference between estradiol produced by the body and that made “in factories”, and neither can a blood test, not so with other, synthetic forms of oestrogen.
There are also some interesting points on the subject of what constitutes “natural” on that site too.
As I understand it, the definition of bio-identical hormones is that there is no difference to those present in the human body, regardless of how they are produced.
xx
LOL NO, Marsha...spot on..
I'll try to find the link but the scientist was adamant that the manufactured ones weren't the same as natural... I'll try to find the link.
Pedantic I know, but Premarin is not classed as a synthetic because it is a “natural” product, as we all know by now, extracted from PREgnant MARe’s urINe.
I believe Premarin may also be synthesised in a lab now, no horses are required to fill a specimen bottle… but this is still not classed as a synthetic because it is bio-identical to the original stuff. Likewise, Estrofem at al are not synthetic because they are bio-identical to the “original” stuff – human estradiol. The reason bio-identicals can’t be patented is precisely because it is exactly the same as human hormones; you can’t patent something that’s found in the human body! And point to note Marsha, because it is the same, it’s not a “foreign substance” because it’s already present in the body, even in males.
Ethinylestradiol would be an example of a synthetic; synthesised in a lab and not identical to human or animal estradiol. It is without doubt more dangerous than estradiol, especially long term.
Incidentally, very recently it was announced that a birth control pill has just been put on the market that for the first time uses bio-identical estradiol (plus a progestin). Since they were invented in the 60’s all birth control pills have used ethinylestradiol, so it’s a bit of a breakthrough, and I’m sure many GP’s will appreciate the lower risks involved.
xx
I may be splitting hairs Marsha but I’m not saying any of the stuff that you just said.
My initial point was that Premarin is not classed as a synthetic, as you said earlier. Just trying to be accurate here.
It’s also not just estrone, but a combination of equine estrogens:
“It is a mixture of sodium estrone sulfate and sodium equilin sulfate.
It contains as concomitant components, as sodium sulfate conjugates, 17á-dihydroequilin, 17á-estradiol, and 17â-dihydroequilin”…
According to the link you just posted.
I absolutely never said it was identical to human estrogen!
Your, “definition of a foreign substance is anything added to the body that it would not otherwise naturally contain…”
was exactly my point, the human body DOES contain estradiol, that’s what I take, ergo it’s not a foreign substance; it’s bio-identical – we’re agreed on that aren’t we?! Bio-identical estradiol in tablet form and estradiol in the body has the same name – estradiol, because it IS the same.
A piece of fruit is a foreign substance and has nothing to do with what I was saying. I hate it when people do that! Your body doesn’t contain apples and oranges, and how your body processes them has nothing to do with what I was saying either.
It’s perfectly simple, and nothing to do with marketing or fruit; you are adding something to your body that is already found in it. A foreign substance is something that isn’t found in the human body, apples, oranges, horse wee-wee, whatever, but not estradiol, which IS found in the human body.
Now stop arguing with me!
xx
July 8, 2009 11:00 PM BST
Thanks Marsha, you did rather imply that I was saying things that I wasn’t. Hugs back.
“The word conjugated literally means a bonding of multiple compounds which Premarin most definitely is.”
I know, which is why I said it’s “a combination…”
You originally said Premarin is Estrone, I just wanted to clarify that it is more than that. It may contain more estrone than estradiol (both equine of course), but estradiol is more potent, so it’s not irrelevant. Estradiol will eventually metabolise to estrone in the body, so perhaps that’s why the absorbency tests you have seen examine the estrone specifically. Perhaps.
I know I can be pedantic, I even said I was being so, but sometimes I think it’s important that facts are presented absolutely correctly.
As for the foreign substance thing, well, that’s obviously a difference of opinion between us. I don’t quite see how the rubbing a pill into your skin analogy bears any relevance, but I understand your viewpoint nevertheless.
If they made a pill of your own saliva and you swallowed it, it wouldn’t be a foreign substance. If you rubbed it on your skin, it still wouldn’t be foreign, it just wouldn’t do what it was supposed to, apart from making your skin wet.
Estradiol is estradiol whether produced in the body or in a lab. You are not introducing something foreign to your body, you are topping up what is already there. The fact that it’s classed as “medication” makes it sound like a foreign substance, but it is actually a human hormone. Ethinylestradiol for example, is a foreign substance. It’s kind of similar to estradiol, but the human body does not produce it, it doesn’t “belong” in your body. Similarly, anything extracted from a horse, does not belong in your body…
In other words, anything that is bio-identical to a substance in the human body would not be a foreign substance, it would be exactly the same.
At least that’s the way I see it.
Bio-identicals are good. Absolutely. We agree. Yay!
xx
July 8, 2009 11:00 PM BST
Just wanted to stop by and say 'thanks' to all who contributed to this thread. I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it so hard to assimilate medical info. So when, for example, Marsha and Lucy debate a point they'd be surprised at how much they help with my education!
It's fair to say that, whilst meandering through the back alleys and shadowed walkways of Hormone City, I'm slowly learning...
Many many thanks.
Much love
Rae xx
July 8, 2009 11:15 PM BST
That's great, Rae.
Marsha and I do love our little debates.
xx
July 12, 2009 8:33 AM BST
this may be what happened a couple of years ago when I tried upping my dose of estrogen but suddenly flushed out with a thick coat of black hair. It took me about another month to get back to the original dosage and within a couple of weeks all the dark hair went...it was an awful 8-10 weeks.
July 12, 2009 8:58 AM BST
Re the possible bladder shrinkage or increased sensitivity have a look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulbourethral_gland and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seminal_vesicle
and both show the male anatomy of the bladder and related bits and pieces.
If the pix are correct and to scale then it seems that the bladder is wedged into a tapering cavity and held up on the prostate and seminal vesicles and also resting on the internal portion of the penis? And for that matter is the internal part of the penis held in place with muscles or structures that shrink with estrogen? What holds a penis in place when it is being thrust into a tight hole?
Estrogen makes the penis and prostate shrink and the seminal vesicles stop producing and shrink and perhaps the tiny Cowper's shrinks too or at least stops working so if all this shrinkage occurs then it seems logical that the bladder will settle deeper into the wedge and is constricted giving the impression of shrinkage.
Have we had that feedback from Mr Bellringer yet?
July 12, 2009 12:42 PM BST
Although Finasteride inhibits DHT at cellular level, it is not generally considered an anti-androgen, which is what Marsha was refering to when she said I don't need them, and she's right, I don't. Most pre-ops don't need them either, but that's another story...
My Finasteride always comes with a big label stuck on the by the chemist saying, "ONLY TO BE USED BY MALES", (I hate that!)
So I'd suggest its use by females is pretty rare, certainly in this country. ironically there has actually been a study done on effects of body hair reduction in females using Finasteride, so I'm not saying it has never happened. It's probably not something GP's would prescribe to women for that problem here though, and its use for TS's is really only approved of by the gender clinics for its proven effect in halting scalp hair loss.
Everyone has oestrogen receptors in their cells which will accept oestrogen (or thousands of times weaker "herbal" products which are similar enough to fit in the receptor slots). What effect the oestrogen has depends on many factors, but not the number of oestrogen receptors; every cell has a slot for the oestrogen keys.
I actually don't believe that oestrogen will "not do a thing" for anybody. Everyone will notice some effect; everyone must work out their correct dose.
Taking high dosages may cause the body to try to compensate by producing more testosterone thus causing the effects that Rose experienced, but this will only be temporary while the body adjusts to all that oestrogen. It's common for SRS patients to experience these sort of effects, caused in the same way by the sudden closure of their testosterone factory. The other organs which produce testo will be instructed to make more to compensate, again of course, it's only temporary.
xx
July 13, 2009 10:51 AM BST
In the absence of any other input and seeing as only Natalie and I believe that hormones cause bladder and related other organ shrinkage I am going to officially label the condition NATALIE-ROSE SYNDROME.
LOL
July 13, 2009 1:56 PM BST
Hi Natalie..
LOL Glad you like a syndrome named after you...but if there is only me and you prepared to think it through and detail it then we have the right to name it...so NRS it is. I'll think about starting a website to publicise it.
Too many non-TS have no idea of the changes the hormones make...its more than just boobs and fat deposits... LOL