ooops...

Okay....

I,ve got 5 men in my mobile phone. 2 of them married, one simple and one alcoholic. But I get more of them every day. Don´t you worry. And I´m not going to cry after them.

Laura

I feel the same about this. And I have in fact answered some of these postings by Laura since I entered TW two months ago. And it's not a question of "TS's holding together". If anything (like that) it's been a way of saying that it means a lot to me and that I want her to keep writing. It is true that we are a "minority within a minority". And exactly because of that, like Lucy said: personal experiences mean more - than anything else.

Linda

Yesterday I sent a mobile message to four of these men. One of them called me back and wished me goodnight. This guy has met me once and still thinks I´m a regular woman.
I slept well after his call .

Laura

gee Nancy.....a little harsh maybe...you seem to be very angry lately...I miss the lighter side of you we used to see, you should let it out more often.

Sandra said quite right that my dispise against my male genitals grew during my HRT, probably partly because the HRT changed the rest of my body into "the right" and the contradiction between the "wrong" part and the right body grew bigger.
I started to look at it as some kind of a leftover from my not so much wanted past no more belonging to my life and at least not to my future.

Laura

I'll continue to read, and respond to, anything on the site I choose to, and I was under the impression this was my right as a member

Nancy , you can have all the surgery you want, But most of the cd's and TV's here will always be more ladylike than you. Your attitude is repulsive to me..I am a TG and resent your blanket statements re how TG's are superior and everything else is not in 'Our class", shame on you. I have tried to be civil and gently ask you why you are so bitter and judgemental and I get .."well my hormones are late" so am I to take it that because you mismanaged you meds that we are to bear the brunt of your "chemical imbalance" ..I remember a while back when you posted a very slutty pic of you in a red thong spread out across a bar somwhere..I was appalled that you would present yourself in such an unladylike fashion , but if you notice ..I kept my mouth shut..and then in the next few days I read where you are telling people that CD's and TV's are just in it because of the fetish and they arent qualified to present themselves or their opinion on this forum , and now you are here telling people to f**k off...My point is If you are trying to become a lady, you have a long way to go, if you are trying to become a bitter female, you are on the right track. I am soo glad I am not like you...It must be hell to feel so isolated and above it all...but I will say one thing , you do serve a purpose.. you remind me how ugly we can be when we forget to respect others ...now you may tell me how I dont understand your "Personal anguish" to "F**k off" but let me assure you ..it carries no weight here

Spades???, Honey I havent even cut the deck yet.

Making value judgements about people leads to nightmares like Auschwitz. No one has to like anyone, but awareness of others is a mark of a sophisticated person, and good manners are the glue of a civilized society.

civilized: pertaining to the interrelations of a community of citizens with equal rights. originally: suitable for a city dweller, as opposed to the feudal servitude and rustic manners of peasantry. Civil life: of the middle classes, regulated by common law and considerate manners, as opposed to the autocratic ways and violent life of aristocracy.
However, peasants, workers and middle class people may have to defend themselves with uncivilized means. Sometimes, I guess, this will be the case for transsexuals too.

Linda,
TS, Air Force ltn.

I do think I know that feeling, Nancy. Mad as hell from being forced to live in hell. And I have wondered if some CDs can understand this. I would say , however, that the more important dividing line is the one between having been able to establish a more or less emotionally satisfying close relationship with another human being or living a total lie. Gay, bi - the possibilities, the communities are there for all to see. But being TS usually means growing up as a total outsider. But this is in some sense a question of numbers. We are few. Nobody is to blame for that. And things have changed for the better.



Linda

I agree with you, Lucy. Separating ourselves from the Transgender community and stand alone ? I don't think this is even possible. Would be like separating myself from the larger part of my own soul. Being TS means being TG, even if the opposite isn't necessarily true.

Linda

When I wrote that thing about my soul I was thinking of the past that always will be a part of me. In some sense having lived the life of a prisoner I would like to forget much of it, of course. But then, on the other hand I have been slowly transitioning for years. Looking back I can see that I have left one "community" after another - never being able to play the part expected. But the people I met, and the subjects I studied stays an important part of me. Thinking along those lines I can see that leaving the TG community behind could be a natural outcome for me too.
I am a little confused though. I really thought that being TS somehow meant being TG - transgender meaning identifying with the opposite gender of our physical appearance and not necessarily alternating back and forth.
When I wrote that "TS means being TG even though the opposite isn't necessarily true" I must admit that I was thinking something like "being female means being human even though the opposite isn't necessarily true to the same extent." - which could be read (between the lines) as "the opposite - men being human - isn't necessarily true to the same extent." Could be that I have some problem with perceiving those on the opposite side of the spectrum as truly human beings. But then, that has been my personal experience.

Linda

I understand that I was a transsomething as long as I was in my transition...and after that I have a trans past which is a part of me forever. But my life is wherever I choose, there may be friends from trans communities but most of them are from my everyday environment. My life is now among "regular" people and I feel strongly I´m one of them.

Laura

I would have liked things to be like that, Laura. Living among regular people and feeling like one of them. This was part of my plan when I started my architects studies. I do not have too high hopes that this will happen now though - living alone, isolating myself for such a long time. How did you feel at the outset of your transition ?

Linda

Linda

I had a plan. I remember having thought "I must find new friends among regular people who accept me". And so I did, I got a bunch of women who took me among them as one of them. One of them became my best friend, we still are the best friends. Those friends from their part helped me back into the world as Laura.
Of course I was lucky, too. But without a strong will and a plan it would not have worked out this way.
You must have a clear goal, then a plan and make it work with your will.

Laura

Well, Ziggy, I'm not surprised that some people get disappointed if they think they're taking part in a beauty contest - or even expecting to improve their status in society. Basically I'm doing this for myself on my own, which in itself gives me some hope that things could work out for the better.

Linda

Goals, planning and will power, Laura, of course you're right. Keeping a reasonably tidy house or even cleaning out most of the old stuff, could be necessary to find what we're looking for. As for the clear plan, I usually need a very long gestation period. Just can't be helped it seems - somewhat like the elephant and it's pregnancies.

Linda

Elephants Can Remember

Agatha Christie, 1972
One of Christie's very last novels, Elephants Can Remember sees Hercule Poirot solving a case from the past.

What do you mean by that, Ziggy ? Like she's being harassed out in the streets or ? It's one thing I am worrying about. Seems to me your friend should pass well enough to be left alone. So why isn't she ? Being 1005 could be a problem too, maybe ? And especially if they know her past ?

Linda

No boss, no colleagues, Sandra. And not much family left. And friends ? Two, and I barely ever meet them. Once or twice a year maybe. I have to face up to one of them as, end of summer, he is starting his architects practice in the same factory complex were I live and have my studio. But I may just let things run it's course and let him start thinking. I am also working on a book that will explain these things even though it's not the main subject. (Being TS is, after all, not my main subject.) Showing my therapist part of this work was an important when telling him. I hope to have most of it finished by autumn.
The relationships I have and want to keep are: my two sisters and a female cousin and her husband. (he is very much the wife)
And then there's my mother... Still, I see this as an opportunity for increasing my distance from my family, even the ones I do not want to lose. The best times of my life I have been completely on my own, not talking to anyone. Which says a lot about my family, I think.

The possibility of being harassed worries me somewhat, though.

Did you think of any special medical problems, Sandra ? Like sideeffects occurring in most cases ?

Linda

double...

Sorry, triple...

I wonder the same thing as Sandra. Why is somebody spotted?
There must be some reason. I don´t get any problems from unknown people because they don´t know my past. And even those who know my past are friendly to me.
It can be my "positiveness", I have been accused for "superpositivism" in ts circles and carry there a nick name "lady sunshine".
Maybe it is more difficult to spot a happy and smiling person, I don´t know...

Laura

I wonder the same thing as Sandra. Why is somebody spotted?
There must be some reason. I don´t get any problems from unknown people because they don´t know my past. And even those who know my past are friendly to me.
It can be my "positiveness", I have been accused for "superpositivism" in ts circles and carry there a nick name "lady sunshine".
Maybe it is more difficult to spot a happy and smiling person, I don´t know...

Laura

And if happy and smiling you're certainly not afraid... Fear draws attention from the worst kinds of people.

Linda

Whatever you say, at least my life is now totally ok as a post op. But I´m known in ts circles as "lady sunshine".

Laura

Well I for one like to hear Laura's little snippets, whether I comment on them or not. It's not weird that people don't post on a particular forum, perhaps like me they'd never heard of that one. Trannyweb is my portal to the transgendered community, or our own little part of it, I don't have time to trawl the internet and post on every ts forum that exists, and personal experiences mean more to me than people spouting off like tranny politicians. People's lives are more interesting to me than ts issues in general, and anyway boyfriends of a post-op ts IS an issue. Thank you Laura for sharing these little things, I love to hear about them.
If you don't see the point of a thread Ziggy then don't comment on it.

I enjoy Laura's posts as well. She is going somewhere that I never will, just as I have gone somewhere I never thought I would. I like learning what she is learning, from her own viewpoint. Some of it is relevant to my llfe, but even that part that isn't teaches me what I can't learn in any book. We can't help but have some of "us" spill over into our forum discussions. To rule that out would make them...cold. A lot of us find out we are not alone in our thoughts and feelings through revelations in forums.

Yes I to read Laura's post. I also read Ziggy's. He expressed an opinion without being offensive. Yet the responce became offensive. Why!!

Laura, I have to agree with something you just wrote "and still thinks I'm a regular woman." To us you are not "regular," but rather something special, so he is right in that department.

And in a quick reply to Ziggy's comments, I didn't realize there were any rules about posting our feelings here at TW. I don't always respond to Laura's postings because I just don't have anything significant to add. But I still love reading them nonetheless.

There is a reason why Katie gave us so many Forum categories.

Nancy,
"This persons...." You lost me. Who were you speaking about. Someone without a name? I'm guessing you referred to Ziggy, but I'm not certain.

I also read Ziggy's posts with interest, for Ziggy is, like her chosen icon, trying to open people's eyes and minds to social inequities for TG folk, and the dark side we often do not talk about. The pain and loneliness and isolation that haunts so many of our lives. Acceptance in twenty years is not enough for some of us. Some of us will be dead before that happens. The past two weeks alone I have talked to three TW members who stood with their hand on the doorknob of death's door. These are serious matters. Perhaps she seems harsh at times, but she also works hard at getting people to look at themselves. This may be hard for some people to deal with (truthfully, Ziggy there are times I don't know if I want to hug you or hit you with a stick and I suspect that is exactly the reaction you want ) but I do not want Ziggy to stop expressing her feelings, Nancy, any more than I want you to. I would think that you, if anyone, would understand the effects of frustration over something important to you. When I get upset by a post I stop and say....why do I feel this way about that? It usually teaches me something about myself. My getting angry at a post I disagree with teaches me nothing. I do, but like with this current issue, I try to look for a constructive outlet and understanding and not attack someone. It's not always easy, but I think it's best. Now I'm going to finish an emaii to a TW sister and see if I can give her a reason to live another week. If you wish, you can all continue to fight over this major issue of transgenderism. (see, i can get mad)

Laura, you called FOUR of them? You little devil!

Nancy that can be said about all of us. None of us are in tune or we wouldn't feel the need for change. Androgynous is both male & female in one. Aren't we? Revolutionary, to bring about great change. Aren't you? As long as there not forced on others deviant sensations can be umm well

I've said it before; I didn't spend 40 years hemmed in by one gender to spend the next 40 being hemmed in by another, so I kind of agree with Ziggy on his androgenous mono-gender outlook. And, as that's not widely accepted by most of our "societies" I guess that makes it fairly revolutionary.

.. But I still like reading Laura's posts though.

Cerys xx
(Not much of a man, but I'll never be much of a woman either - does that make me a "floating voter"?)

Fragile male egos? Once again you are engaging in sweeping generalizations. If you don't like your penis, that's fine. You'll do with it as you like soon enough. But for those of us who choose to keep ours, that's our prerogative. We support your decision, so why not support ours? I am perfectly capable of thinking beyond mine, despite your comments. Perhaps you need to change your acquaintances since you can't seem to meet anyone who doesn't piss you off.

Has it occurred to you that any responses here have nothing to do with a "fragile male ego?" You have been on quite a tear lately that doesn't exactly inspire us to read anything. As for us ignoring your posts, it is coming very quickly to that.

And, to take your advice, I will ignore any more postings in this thread.

I wasn't going to read any more of Nancy's nonsense (I've had too much of it), but someone - who shall remain nameless because I do believe in some discretion - mentioned to me in a personal note that I should read her latest bitching and comment on it. I had to agree.

No-one expects any of us to be happy and peppy all the time. But neither do we like a 24/7 asshole. About a month or so back someone wrote a forum post that we don't have flame wars here. It seems you have certainly started one. But I, for one, do not intend to be in it anymore than this comment.

F' you? Is that what you said? Just a short time back you ranted and raved about how some TSs were intolerant. You are doing the exact same sort of thing. Maybe you don't like looking in a mirror, which is why they made you mad.

If we don't fit into your narrow little views of what it means to be TG then we're all jerks, right? I didn't realize that TSs and CDs can't communicate in any way. And, Ms. Nancy, if you would pay attention you'd see that the CDs here are so supportive of those who want to fully transition. But to recognize this would take away your excuse to bitch and moan. Don't forget that TW is a place for ALL of us, something that Ziggy was pointing out. If I see one of my TS friends here posting a thread that I think is interesting I should not be excluded from it, despite what you think. Really, Ziggy was right - if you want a solely TS environment then go find one. But if you want tolerance from across the TG spectrum then stick around. But watch telling us f' you. It will backfire.

I've truly had enough of this. So, Nancy, I will glady honor your request and ignore you. I will NOT have you ruining TW for me.

Sola,
I love seeing your responses to posts because I get to see your latest pair of shoes as well as read the post.

I have to agree with the general trend of responses to this "busted" thread, about men, that I was enjoying at first. A transgendered bigot is still a bigot. I really appreciated being told I was male because I have testosterone. I have certainly been put in *my* place. Sorry, Nancy, 6 billion modal bigots can't do it to me and I won't let a disgruntled t-girl do it either. I have enough crap in my own head to deal with without taking on more. Anybody as consistently angry as you is either in permanent PMS (are you on medically supervised hormones?) or needs to get some help working out what is making them so angry before it destroys them. You will find it hard enough to have friends in this world without alienating most of the TG possibilities as well. I really feel sorry for you that you are this miserable and angry. Finding out I was TG has made me much happier. I'm sorry you have not found that kind of peace. I doubt you will find it under a surgeon's knife either.

Ladies I think this thread should end NOW!!!
I also think it should be removed. Things said here can hurt people. People reading this at a later time may also get angry.
Starting a new wave of anger. I will not open this thread again for any reason. DONE!!

"I think I will devote my time and energy to seeing 'Transexuals' seperate themselves from the 'Trangender' group and stand alone..."

I personally will not be devoting any time or energy to that pursuit.
xx

Laura,
What you are saying is absolutely right. The major issue is that you should be able to live with anyone as anyone and not have to be in a social "ghetto". Your friends should *not* have to be determined by your sex, gender, sexual preference. They should be determined by the same factors anyone else determines them by...the people you want to be around.

Some of us live alone with our gender issues. Some of us live in a gender community (social "ghetto") (and some of us even in a "sub-ghetto") and some of us live with everyone. The last is how it *should* be and all that should matter is who you are as a human. Issues of comfort, courage and luck in finding friends all affect how we socialize. I know that people who won't accept me for what I am, if they know, are really not the kind of people I want in my life or as friends. I also know that being told that friends of mine were gay and lesbian made a dramatic change in my perceptions, acceptance and efforts to *really* understand those people. Ultimately, (historically) it was myself that I found wanting, not the "different" people. Any shame was mine as a "heterosexual male" who was lacking in empathy and understanding; thankfully I went "Doh!" slapped myself in the forehead and stopped behaving like an ass. No one should have to tell what they are or hide what they are. They should be accepted as the human they are.