September 14, 2005 8:34 AM BST
Easy way for the government to reduce the price of petrol at the pump by 8.24 pence.....stop taxing a tax!
Currently VAT on Petrol is calculated by applying the 17.5% tax to the price of a litre of fuel after the Excise Duty has been applied, so a taxed tax occurs.
This is the only time this ricockulous practice happens and is a disgrace.
By stopping this "Highway Robbery" the price of a litre of fuel would drop by 8.24 pence
If you want confirmation of this fact check out
http://www.abd.org.uk and read the recent press release 455
And for a simple analysis of the cost of a litre of fuel, where it goes, how it breaks down and compares to other European countries check out the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/s[...]l/1.stm
And finally check out this
http://www.ukpia.com/Port[...].05.pdf for a brief explanation of where and how oil prices and petrol prices come about.
Perhaps the best protest should be to our MP's, MWA, MSP's to campaign about the double tax whammy we get hit with here in UK and not blockade refineries, go slows and other actions that will only be used to bring in new powers, forward the case for road tolling, bring ID cards closer and other unpleasantness.
Perhaps it's time to remind our elected representatives who actually gives them the job.
Alex
xxxx
September 14, 2005 12:30 PM BST
That's the thing though - Fuel IS cheap. It's the tax that's expensive.
I agree we should move away from oil - did you know that it's possible to run your car on pure vegetable oil or on biofuel with the appropriate conversion? The trouble is, the engine conversion costs around £1500. The price of running your car on these fuels after that initial outlatay is about 6 times cheaper than running on petrol at the moment.
The really odd thing is that the government aren't promoting it. Why? It's because they make so much money on taxing petrol - not just at the pump, but they get quite a large amount of tax directly from the oil companies to - directly proportionate to a barrel of crude.
The environment is an EXCUSE for government to tax petrol - in reality they couldn't care less and just want the money.
September 14, 2005 12:52 PM BST
In fact Rhia you can run a diesel engined car on vegetable oil with a little white spirit without conversion and most modern cars will run on methanol with just a slight adjustment to the fuel injection system, so no real expense to use these fuels. The only problem would arise from having to change valve seats to deal with the higher burn temperature of methanol but the vast majority of new engines are fitted with hardened seats anyway.
The conversion cost of around £1500 is probably for LPG as you need to have a new fuel tank fitted (think large orange calor gas canister) but you can get a grant for half the cost should you want to convert. Just remember that LPG stands for Liquified PETROLEUM Gas so guess where it comes from.
I think this may kick start the move away from Petroleum based fuels towards other alternatives such as biofuels, hydrogen, fuel cells and electrics. The only problem is infrastructure and that's a catch 22. Until there is enough demand there won't be the supply and until there is the supply there won't be the demand. Bit like LPG a few years ago.
Tax, one of lifes certainties. No matter how hard you try to avoid it they'll get the money from you somehow. You can guarentee if they drop tax on petrol they'll increase road fund or up VAT to 19.5% or some other method.
Alex
xxxx
September 14, 2005 1:29 PM BST
Yes, I'm aware of running diesels on veg oil/methanol - but that's not what I was talking about. You can acctually run acar on pure vegetable oil with the right conversion. That said, the same is true of pure methanol. I acctually live just down the road from the town where the recent trend for running a diesel car on vegetable oil and methanol started (and ended!)
The reason I didn't mention LPG is precisely because it's a trojan horse - just like hybrid cars it's a reliance on oil that only APPEARS to be a good solution.
Biofuel is not the same as vegetable oil - the great thing about biofuel is that if the right plants are used, the Co2 absorbed by the crops is almost identical to the Co2 produced by burning the fuel. And it's very very cheap!
The government is happy to offer grants for LPG conversion precisely BECAUSE it comes from oil. The same is not true of vegetable oil or biofuels - both of which are better fuels in terms of both price, and environment. The government has done a reaonable amount to promote LPG, which is the very reason that it is now quite widely available - the technology for the other (better) fuels has been around for the same length of time.
The thing is, there's NO catch 22 here. The demand is there and has been for a long time in some form or other. If motorists knew about these better fuels, and most don't, they'd jump at the chance if they could. All it takes is public promotion - something the government is very good at, especially in the form of propaganda. The classic buisiness model is that supply only exists BECAUSE there is demand - it's very bad buisness to produce a product before you know people want it.
As for tax, well, inevitably they find the money somewhere else - to be honest, I think they should, maybe starting with the ending of overseas conflicts we have no real reason to be involved in. That probably won't happen, but I would say that the tax would be better spread around EVERYONE. I mean, wherever the tax motorists pay goes, it certainly isn't towards the roads - it goes towards services for the public as a whole, war, and MP's pay rises.
September 23, 2005 10:50 PM BST
It is seriously quite easy. You do not buy petrol from major companies.You look for the small ones.ie morrison.tesco etc who look to be in the big market but are not.Shaken by market forces, the big ones then respond by a drop in prices which is matched by the smaller ones to keep pace. It is show bizz after all
September 12, 2005 4:54 PM BST
I think it's more of that we're being played for fools.
Trying to make us feel good about paying higher prices.
September 12, 2005 11:34 AM BST
As I understand it most of the fuel protesters anger in the UK is aimed at the "high" levels of tax levied on petrol. Many people blame "the government" (blanket term) and see a simple solution to the problem in the reduction of such taxes. But the revenue lost by reducing fuel taxes would only have to be raised elsewhere by increasing other forms of taxation. The fuel protesters have yet to offer their suggestions as to where this lost revenue would be raised.
It's worth remembering that we don't pay VAT (purchase tax) on food in the UK whereas some other European countries (who may have lower fuel duties) do. Within reason I can choose not to drive but I gotta eat!
Also I can drive from one end of the country to the other on a crowded but reasonably efficient motorway system without paying road tolls .. unlike much of Europe
In addition, there is a "price expectation" now (ie. we have got used to the levels of fuel prices) you can bet if the government lowered the duty on a litre by 10p the forecourt price would soon creep back up to the same levels as the Oil companies sensed an opportunity to claw back a few pence for themselves.
And ... I'm moving house this weekend, if I can't cos there's no petrol to be had thanks to these protests and the inevitable panic buying that will ensue I'll be well miffed!!
Cerys x
(Where are the silent electric hovering scooters I was promised as a child we would all be riding come the year 2000?)
September 12, 2005 12:00 PM BST
What I've noticed is if they want to raise prices 10cents. They jump them 30cents. Then slowly come back down leaving it up the 10cents. No one complains because it's better than the 30cents. People buy it saying the price went back down & are happy.
They do this using different reasons. First saying winter mix cost more to produce. Than later saying the conversion to summer mix added to the cost.
September 12, 2005 12:08 PM BST
It still goes up they just try to make it look softer.
September 14, 2005 9:48 AM BST
Who just waited 45 mins to fill up her car at a forecourt only quarter of a mile from one of Britain's largest refineries? Grrr!
An equally interesting set of figures (again from the BBC) here to compliment Alex's ....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/s[...]l/1.stm
Which shows amongst other things that fuel duty is actually less in real terms now than it was in 1995, though I take the point about the double rachet effect of VAT on top of duty.
I wonder how much of the current panic arises from reaching the psychological £1 per litre level. Add to that the fact that people would rather moan than adjust to the simple fact that the world is moving on and "cheap" fuel is now part of history for all manner of geo-political reasons.
Cerys xx