This will sound harsh

    • 1912 posts
    September 15, 2007 1:04 AM BST
    Geez Susan, I guess I will be the first to respond to you since I like you speak my mind. What made you the expert on each gal's situation, what, you think everyone is like you? Do you know how hard many of the gals here have fought and denied the situation they are in? Obviously you don't know the answers to those questions. Just maybe some of the gals felt truly they could make things work and give up being TG. Just maybe they love their spouses more than they love being TG. For older gals they were brought up in a period with little information available and enormous taboos associated with being TG.

    By the way, I'M OUT TO MY WIFE OF 29 YEARS. I love her dearly and only came out to her last year. I am fortunate she now accepts my situation fully. Yes I dressed before marrying her.

    Marsha
    • 83 posts
    September 15, 2007 12:26 AM BST
    But I cannot understand any girl on here who has not told their wife if they are married..in fact if you are married why have you not told your wife before she became your wife???? How unfair is that???!!!

    I have always told my girlfriends when it got to the serious stage..why? because they deserved my respect! Did it cost me? yes two relationships - so what - it meant that I was not hiding behind their backs!

    Am I harsh? My ex wife came out as a lesbian ten years into our relationship and I was gutted that I had been decieved for so long especially as I trusted her with my secreat from the start!

    Sorry to you girls who say "it will break up my relationship" etc but what were you doing going behind the person that you say you love's back????

    I know that this will be unpopular and who am I to say this but I am lucky now to have someone who accepts me for who I am..but it took rejection and pain to get here and I NEVER lied to my SO's!
    • 515 posts
    September 15, 2007 4:23 AM BST
    Susan,
    Way too condescending for me to give you a rational answer to this post, but I will say judging others is a sure fire way of getting judged for all your own actions.
    • 1195 posts
    September 15, 2007 2:20 PM BST
    Susan
    You have been a member of TW for 6 years now. Allow me to scold you - and don't get your feeling hurt. If you have been reading the forums you should know that it isn't lady-like to attack....and your thread has been interpreted as an attack. Not nice. Your situation is your situation....as the saying goes "one size doesn't fit all."
    Enough said. Just spread joy- ok?
    hugs
    Gracie
    • 259 posts
    September 15, 2007 4:10 PM BST
    This is my real life experience on this subject:

    There are lots of reasons to be in the closet- the strait life was all I knew, I had no support-no gay friends, I thought I was "sick"( as my husband put it). Maybe I could lose my job that I loved and was successful at. Couldn't bear the thought of loss of my family and friends, or a court battle for custody of my precious daughter. Being closeted as most of you know is dark, lonely and even agonizing.

    I was married many years before I told my husband I was lesbian. When I met him I was in denial about it and did not understand my feelings. Sadly I have never really loved him (I tried) but he has been a good "friend". When I told him, I knew it would end our marriage. At first I felt guilty that I "wasted" 17 yrs of his life( that is how he put it). However I had reached a point in my life where I was ready to accept it. It was a process I had to go through- a "realization" and acceptance. When I felt the time was right I did what was right for me.

    Just like everyone else, I want to be loved and accepted for who I am.

    Thats why I love TW so much. The support and friendships I have made here have literally saved my life.


    • 83 posts
    September 16, 2007 12:41 AM BST
    Dear all

    I am sorry if I came across too harshly..from re-reading my post I may have come across too judgemental..ok I was being too judgemental. You are right I do not know anyone elses position and circumstances and I totally agree (if I am to leave my sweeping statements aside) that there are many reasons that can cause you/us not to be upfront - especially if you do come from asmall town..I did not take that into account.

    Let me say know that I too thought i could stop doing this in a vain attempt to save a relationship where my partner hated what I am, and I have also gone through the self lothing issue - many times!! (I was brought up a Catholic so everything had guilt attached!). I have also purged and seen close friends stop talking to me so I do know how hard it is.

    Still I hope you will forgive me that I do bring this up as I do know how hurtful it is to be lied to and the damage it can do to along time relationship - I can never be friends with my ex wife because of the lies I felt were given to me.


    Susan
    • 259 posts
    September 16, 2007 1:22 AM BST
    Susan
    My ex husband would agree with you about how much I hurt him by not being honest about my orientation. I honestly didn't know I was lesbian until later(although I guess I did hide it for a while). He is very heartbroken and angry but it was not intentional. The pain I caused him I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy and I feel bad about that. At first I felt so bad that I hurt him, I went into a depression, thinking I was such a horrible person. The horrible guilt. He was a good husband, very supportive of me, took care of me when I was hurt or sick, always on my side, a great dad to our daughter etc... Think thats why I held on to him for too long, I knew I would miss that.

    What I wish for my exhusband is for him to find someone that can love him with all their heart. He deserves that. Maybe he can love again too.
    • 871 posts
    September 16, 2007 2:05 PM BST
    I appreciate Susan's principle because no one likes to be false. However, it can take some people years to discover what they are and to come to terms with it, much like me. I never considered myself as being false to anyone I have met over the years.

  • September 18, 2007 11:11 PM BST
    I'm going to jump to Susan's defence and agree with her.

    in simplistic terms (because there are no absolutes) if the marriage is not based on trust then it's on dangerous ground before it's begun

    Everyone on here who define themselves as TG will probably also say that fact cannot be changed, nor do we want to change - If this is true (and I've no reason to doubt it) then by not being honest with your SO you are basing the marriage on a lie. It's not as though the problem is going to go away, is it? so you'll need to deal with it at some point, and the phrase "before it's too late" applies here to you

    If you don't trust her enough to tell her something about you that you don't want to change, nor will in all likelihood be able to change, but you still go through with the marriage - then you aren't being fair to that person.

    If you have doubts whether the woman can deal with it or not (and I assume this would be the main reason for not being honest as early as possible) then how angry would they have the right to feel if you've effectively trapped them in marriage?

    It's an easy get out to blame the woman for not being tolerant - and it does have some justification...

    PS yes I am married, and yes I did tell my fiancee at that point, and I'll not pretend it was smooth sailing all the way, but it wasn't a relationship breaker and with some give and take on both sides, we've stayed together very happily for 20 years

    • 166 posts
    September 19, 2007 5:19 AM BST
    truth ...truth ... and Honesty !!? -can be painfull
    .. telling my Granny I wish to or ever had ,dressed like a Girl .. might have slayed Her ?
    I'm still in limbo .. knowing ... " I am's what I am's " ( Popeye)
    it's a tough reality ( avoidance ?) TG-izm eh ?? just askin ? "K"

  • September 19, 2007 7:52 PM BST
    @Meredith

    I was speaking in simplistic and non absolute terms(I stated that early on in my post)

    and you're very right when you say there are numerous considerations in each case that need to be addressed.

    but in general, I think that the situation needs to be settled before the marriage to be fair to both sides.

    @Khriss

    With my family (parents, Grandparents, siblings) I haven't let them know about me being TG... but with my wife I did. The difference for me was that it was a bond based on trust and honesty
    • 773 posts
    September 20, 2007 1:23 AM BST
    I never formed any family obligations in my effort of denial and suppression. I did lots of other stuff, but I always knew who I was and where I was going. I guess I always felt it would be unfair to make a commitment to someone knowing that I would someday no longer be the person they thought I was.

    It is my feeling that those who do create family obligations need to put their personal goal of gender expression on hold until their children are of age and their obligation to them is fulfilled.

    I probably won't be terribly popular for expressing this opinion, but it is just that, an opinion, and I'm not known for expressing popular opinions anyway.
    • 83 posts
    October 9, 2007 10:54 PM BST
    Hi meredith

    I can't speak for everyone about telling people but I can tell you how I told the SO's in my life. The first person I told was a girlfriend long ago and I told her after she put make up on me that I liked it and then slowly I spoke about what I liked about it and where it came drom etc. maybe I was extreamly lucky but she accepted it and from then on I vowed that whatever the cost I would let my SO's know before the relationship got too deep. Obviously I had to make the judgement on whether the relationshhip was not casual (I didn't want to just let everyone know) but in those relationships that I knew would go somewhere I was honest as soon as possible. I tend to sit down with the person and explain that I have a secreat that I don't tell everyone and I explain that I understand that they might find it uncomfortable etc. I then explain that I was dressed as a young boy by my sister and how I liked it and that I have dressed ever since. I explain that I am not gay and that it is not something that will ever go away. I tell the person that I understand if they no longer want to be with me etc I then wait to answer all the questions that follow. I have lost two very close girlfriends/friends because of it and that has hurt but by speaking out at the beginning has ensured that I am free to be me. Oh and yes I did have avery special person who knew but hated it and I dressed only alone and yes it eventually broke up our relationship but we are still friends and she chooses never to mention it.

    One thing that i will say though is that in the majority of cases in my life I have had no problems. I also should mention that I don't go round telling any old person because I am aprivate person as regards to my sexual nature but that is apersonal choice.

    I know that this is me and my life but I wanted to at least explain how I have handled this delicate issue.

    Hope this helps?

    Susan
    x
  • October 16, 2007 9:52 AM BST
    I met a woman, not to long ago, whom I am about to tell my deep secret. I was suppose to fly to L.A. this week to meet her face to face and also do the L.A. AIDS walk together. Curcumstances are keeping me from going this week but will be there next month. She knows about my HIV+ status. We met because of it. She, herself, lived in a lesbian relationships for near 20 years but, she is bisexual. Her brother was transsexual. She/he committed suicide due to HIV. From our chats and talks she knows that I am bisexual myself. I've also alluded to myself as being fem but, never actually come out and said anything about being tg or that I have been in and out of therapy for a good number of years. I know that she really likes me but, I do fear the rejection if I admit to being sexual with women and men in the past and that I am often dressed. I know that it sounds silly to worry about it when the person you are going to tell has lived in the gay life style for 20 years but, there is still a fear of rejection. After several months of talking to her and knowing her past, I feel that she will be comfortable with me. Yet there is so much fear of rejection that I stupidly think I can put myself away and just be happy as a male but, I know in my heart that I can never be fully happy as a male. Years of depression and suicide attempts should be the reason to come out of the closet. At least to someone I think I can trust.
    • 2627 posts
    September 15, 2007 1:02 AM BST
    People don't tell for different reasons.
    1. Fear of being rejected.
    2. Believe they can & will stop once married.
    3. Denial that they are different.
    4. Self hatered of who they are.
    5. A way of hiding from themselfs & others.

    I'm sure the list can go on. But those are the reasons I can think of off hand.

    I do admire you for your honesty with others & yourself.
    • 1980 posts
    September 15, 2007 2:08 AM BST
    Yes, Susan, it is harsh and I think overly so. As Marsha mentioned, none of us have any way of knowing what another's personal situation is, as a practical matter we can only decide what is right for ourselves. While I happen to agree with your stance in principle and as a generalization it is sound advice, there are many reasons why some TG's choose not to out themselves to their SO's. Most of them have already been mentioned in the previous responses and I think chief among them is the feeling that out of love for the other person we can suppress our feelings and needs and conform to society's views and to the feelings and needs of the other person.

    Speaking only of my own circumstances, my wife knew before we were married that I was a CD, but as far as she knew it was only a bit of bedroom kinkiness involving the occasional piece of lingerie. She had no idea how deepseated my TG feelings were...and neither did I at the time. Fortunately for me, when I could no longer stand living under false colors, so to speak, she has been understanding and accepting, which does not imply total endorsement and definitely does not mean she is happy with it.

    Please don't misunderstand, I am not condemning your view and your right to express it. As I said, I think that all things being equal it is probably the right and honest thing to do before a relationship ripens into a deeper commitment. But, it is not a black and white proposition as you seem to believe.

    Hugs...Joni Marie
    • Moderator
    • 2463 posts
    September 15, 2007 2:18 AM BST
    Unless you know me and my life NOBODY has any right to pass any judgment on how I approach,or have approached, my situation.


    If you can think of a surefire method to be open and out, I'd sure like to hear it.
    • 1652 posts
    September 15, 2007 3:05 AM BST
    I think this is called taking the moral high ground. Just because you have always done the decent thing and told your partners about yourself, doesn’t mean that anyone who hasn’t is a bad person.
    We all have our reasons, and I think the question has already been answered, but for me, I just tried (for too long) to fit in and be normal. Ok I failed miserably but it didn’t stop me trying. I didn’t dare tell my girlfriends, because that would have meant telling the whole world thanks to this small town mentality. But also I tried to stifle my true nature because I’d been brought up to believe it was wrong. Maybe in a meaningful relationship with a girl I love I could forget about my dark secret which would surely bring shame and guilt were it ever to get out. I felt if anyone found out the truth it would destroy me, and of course any current or potential relationship. My own fear was very restrictive.
    A few years without a partner helped me to take stock of my life, realise what I wanted, needed, without the complication of having someone else around, keeping secrets, living in fear of being found out. It was no way to live, and I realise now that I wasn’t really doing the right thing. But I didn’t realise that at the time, I was just trying to survive.
    For me, I’ve got to a place where I am able to tell the whole world, you Susan feel comfortable enough with your gender expression to be able to tell your S/O’s about it, but we are all different, we all feel differently about ourselves, and perhaps that is the real reason – how we feel about ourselves affects how much we are able to confide in others.
    Life is better without the secrets and deceit, but it doesn’t mean everyone can, or should immediately tell their partners.
    Each unto their own.
    xx
    • 2068 posts
    September 15, 2007 10:21 PM BST
    Susan......everyones situation is different & they may well have their own personal reasons not to tell their partners that they are TG, but that does NOT make them wrong for doing so. I'm in the situation where my partner is TS & i've just been totally upfront with her.

    We all have the right to live our lives as we see fit & no-one, specially not you, can tell us otherwise.
    as for bein harsh, i think you did go OTT but then thats your opinion which you are entitled to make.


    Lol xxxxxxxx
    Anna-Marie
    • 2573 posts
    September 16, 2007 4:14 AM BST
    Susan, this is such a difficult question to answer. It does in part involve the society and family you grew up in. It also involves when the information, that enabled you yourself to understand what was going on, became available. By the time you were born, I was in my 9th year of school. I grew up in a sociallly/religiously oppressive environment. We had no right to NOT pray in school every day....a Christian prayer. Children were allowed to leave academic classes to attend religious education. It was decades, half a lifetime, before I found any information that was even remotely accurate in explaining my transgenderism. Only a few years ago I still considered myself, as did society, as some kind of sick pervert. Ignorance will do that. Let's just say it was an ignorant, judgemental world. A world where pregnant girls lives were destroyed. Often they were sent away to live thier pregnancy with a distant relative and give the baby up for adoption....carrying their secret like we carried ours. This may explain the reactions you are getting to your judgemental post. It is not that I disagree that it is best to tell one's love before marriage. It's just easier to say than do in most cases. Once one has a clear understanding, I would agree with a lot of what you say when one enters a new relationship...a new one. I told my SO as our relationship was warming up again and after I understood. It was a decision made with the clear understanding that my honesty could cost me the relationship, or at least part of it. I was willing to accept that rather than deny who I was any longer. My fears were for myself. My concerns were for her. At 57 I was sharing the secret I had kept all my life. I was, in fact, changing my life dramatically. This is not an easy road to walk I was fortunate in finding out that I had friends who were gay and lesbian. It gave me a chance to realize how ignorant my views were on this issue. By the time I realized who I was I had worked through my guilt and was much more open-minded, making self-acceptance faster and smoother. My changeover was realatively easy, compared to most, and it was possibly the hardest thing I have ever done. Much scarier than mortal combat. I can't imagine what it is like for others.

    I have believed and done a lot of things in my life that I later regretted or disagreed with. I won't judge you on your statements. I'd probably have been a lot harsher 30 yrs ago. It's not all that long since I was harsh in judging myself. These days I find that being judgemental comes harder and harder. I know you are thinking of the partner's needs, and this is half of making the decision to share....but only half.
    • 2017 posts
    September 16, 2007 12:17 PM BST
    It would be great if everybody was able to confide in their loved one, but each girls situation is different and only they are in a position to best judge it.

    Perhaps one day in the not too distant future, admitting to being TG will as easy as confessing that you like football, or rock music or that you're actually left handed!! But until then, we have to progress at whatever rate we believe is correct, regardless of someone elses judgement.

    One other thing, for what it's worth, my wife knew before we married, but not to what extent. But then neither did I. My feelings changed and grew stronger, as is quite commonplace, and I simply stopped denying my true nature. When I told her I was a crossdresser, I thought it was true at the time, only a couple of years later did I realise I was transsexual.

    Nikki
    • Moderator
    • 2463 posts
    September 19, 2007 1:25 PM BST
    Anne and Susan, again, if you can find a "one size fits all" way to handle this situation please let us know.

    You need to remember that it is not always a case of deliberate deception. What worked for you would not work for me. There are numerous considerations in each case that need to be addressed. We aren't all blessed to have someone like your wife.
  • September 19, 2007 8:28 PM BST
    I am not a TV or CD and maybe I don't know enough to comment on that situation very well... But I would like to think that leaving out important parts of yourself or your life that might affect a relationship is not a very good thing to do.
    Getting married and not telling you have children from a previous marriage, not telling that you can't have children, not telling you took a mortgage on the house to cover gambling debts...
    Keeping important things from a significant other doesn't fall under sharing and trusting which I think are two of the most important parts of a relationship.
    If someone would keep important parts of themselves from me and I would find out by accident at a later stage, I would feel terribly hurt and feel that the basis of the relationship, trust, was no longer there...
    • 2627 posts
    September 19, 2007 9:57 PM BST
    Fear does keep us from talking. But Koala's right. You can't have a real relationship by hiding who you are. Secrets & lies only make life harder & it's allready hard enough.
    • 2017 posts
    September 20, 2007 8:40 AM BST
    Family obligations have not prevented me from my expression of gender however, it has prevented me from being full time. You can't have it all and I don't have it in me to turn my back on those obligations.

    In an ideal world of course, you would tell your partner. However,if you think you want to transition then it is unfair to them to think that they have a future with you as man and wife. How would we feel if it was the other way around?

    That said, sometimes you don't know that you want to transition when you started the relationship so as Meredith said, there is no 'one size fits all'

    If you are only cross dressing, then I do feel that you should not be hiding anything from your partner. Any relationship has to be based on trust after all, no secrets. However, it is not my place to pass judgement on someone elses situation, they are in a better position than me to decide what is best.

    There! That should take the heat off of Robyn!

    Nikki