October 31, 2007 3:43 PM GMT
I can't pretend I'm familiar with the intricacies of the American Health care system so I graciously bow out of that discussion. To quote Disraeli, however, " there are lies, damned lies, and statistics." The unfortunate thing about statistics is they can always be manipulated to prove whatever thesis you have in mind. I'm sure someone could take these same figures and use them to produce a thoroughly compelling and cogent argument as to why the U.S desparately needs state funded universal health care. I do agree entirely with the need for collective bargaining however, and the importance of trade unions in the workplace and similar organisations of collective strength and security in society as a whole. It's a cliche but united we stand, divided we fall.
I can't agree, however, that socialism sucks. But let me explain where I come from here and detail my background a little. Not too much, I want to maintain your attention for a little longer. I come from a large anglo-Irish catholic, working class family. And though I like to imagine otherwise I suspect I have the various prejudices that come with that. I certainly have any number of chips on my shoulder but that's another matter. It's a Labour family, old Labour, not that New Labour monstrosity. To be anything else would be considered heresy. I was raised to believe the establishment of the National Health Service to be the greatest acheivement of any Government, a gift to the people, and to cherish the welfare state. So the would be no more children working in factories, no more Jarrow Marches, and there would be homes fit for heroes. And for all their imperfections I still believe that. I worked for many years I worked in the DSS and I am fully aware of the dependency culture it creates. I know all about freeloaders, generations of them, screaming at me, making threats, demanding their State handout. But I also remember having to go the shop with little bags full of coppers which the shop assistant would empty onto the counter and add up in front of everyone. I don't ever want to do that again. But I'm no bleeding heart liberal, my family come first and I come a very close second, anything else is well down my list of priorities. But I also have the personal responsibility that comes with a sense of free will and it is not expected of me to seek help outside the family circle. If I have a problem then I should sort it out. In other words, don't go cap in hand.
Maybe apathy is not the right word, complacency is a better expression. Part of the problem is that there is so little to distinguish between the political parties. Which is understandable because they all believe in the same system. So you can tinker but you cannot change. Also there is no democracy anywhere in the world. What there is are various forms of representative politics. I have the opportunity to vote every so often, which I don't use, but then the Government goes onto to do whatever it wants. I didn't have any say in our rush to war in Afghanistan and Iraq, or on the new European Treaty they have just signed. Come the next election they will seek my vote and make all kinds of promises in their manifesto, none of which are binding. Then there are the lies and the corruption, cash for honours, a year long investigation and no charges bought. And who had the last say on whether there should be charges? The Attorney General, a Government Minister. Unsurprising then that it never got that far. Then there's the greed, the exorbitant expense claims of MP's, the special mortgage relief they get on their second homes the voting through of their own pay rises, always above the rate of inflation, the benchmark for everyone else. People here simply don't believe the politicians anymore. It's reflected in the turnout, down to 60%.
Anarchism, Destruam et Aedificabo. It's not so much that it can't work but rather that those more powerful would never allow it to succeed. And the contradiction, the dilemma that lies at the heart of Anarchism leaves it unable to defend itself. Remember Barcelona in 1937. So much more to write and so little time. And anyway I want to think I still have some friends.
October 31, 2007 6:04 PM GMT
Koala, what's new with threads drifting in various directions, the topic is still politics. Porscha's thread was about apathy in politics, many of us have stated various reasons we don't like our current governments and what direction they are heading. Because Porscha asked why do we have apathy about talking about politics are we therefore being told not to talk about it. I think for the most part everyone is in agreement here that things are not perfect in government and our politicians are mostly to blame. And it has reached a point that it now matters little who you vote for because the politicians only care about themselves and having power. They basically continue to dangle the carrot, never fully allowing us to have what we really want because if they give us what we want we won't need them anymore.
I think Porscha's last post before this was excellent. It basically stated the same statistics can be manipulated to prove anyones point and that we make an effort to take care of the most important things in our lives on our own, not wait for someone else to do it.
How do you look at things, is the glass half empty or half full? If you are a pessimist you can always find negative information to prove your case. Likewise, albeit harder because of how the media prefers to put more emphasis on "if it bleeds it leads", there is plenty of reasons to be optimistic in life. It is unfortunate that anyone suffers, but just because some do does not mean everyone does or should.
November 1, 2007 4:48 AM GMT
Some time ago, I attended a panel discussion presented by several high profile American transgender figures, on the topic of talking to the media. Famed author Jenny Boyland admonished that one should be ever so cautious when supporting an argument with statistics.
Use of Census Bureau statistics in the context of this thread is a good example of this. Just as one participant can see the fact that only 15.8% of working Americans are not covered under health insurance, while another observes that the 15.8% cited represents 47 million people. So, the same statistic presented in two different ways are both true, but have distinctly different interpretations depending on their presentation.
Anyway, I'm comfortable discussing politics here. This is the political forum, is it not? Ideally, it should be primarily devoted to transgender politics, but transgender people are, above all, people, and are affected by all things political, whether or not it is directly associated with transgender issues. If discussion of politics in the political forum makes any of our members uncomfortable, we could always move political discussion on over to Maryanne's Film forum.
November 2, 2007 7:22 PM GMT
I too was a member a mainstream political party, and one not so mainstream. I even voted once, much to my eternal shame. So I was quite heavily involved in politics as a child of the 80's. There seemed to be so much to oppose back then and everything was just so black and white. I still hold the same views now as I did then, so I don't think I was wrong. So my involvement in politics certainly didn't modify my views and I have always tended too see things in terms of right and wrong. Politics taught me only two things: how to hate and how to lie. Left-wing politics is driven by hate, not hatred of their political opponents, but their hatred of each other. It's not a pleasant experience spending your days hating someone else simply because hold a different opinion to your own. I'm a pragmatist by nature, I think, and when I hear the term conviction politician it sends a cold shudder down my spine. As Nietzsche wrote, " Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." Just how many lives have been destroyed by anothers convictions. The worse aspect, however, is the lying. Having to support and try to convince others of policies you don't even agree with yourself. You look them in the eye and say one thing when all the time you're thinking - you're right you know. It does serve to remind me, however, that politics is a career. And it's not a world full of sincere people with earnestly held beliefs driven by an overwhelming desire to make the world a better place. But politics is important, we can't pretend it isn't. It effects us all on a daily basis whether we are actively involved or not. Of course polticians are self-seeking as are the parties they serve. Government and the State is a leech that sucks the life-blood out of humankind. But I can think of no alternative. we just have to fight our own battles.
November 2, 2007 10:04 PM GMT
Gee Porscha, would you mnd if I just cut and paste your last post and put my name to it? Maybe some of my prior posts lead some to think I am argumentative regarding politics, but actually all I'm against are the far left liberals and the far right conservatives. Both are just different people telling you that they know what is better for you.
November 3, 2007 4:54 AM GMT
Mistrust of politicians is a healthy mistrust to have.
November 3, 2007 4:02 PM GMT
From Porsha's post
"Just how many lives have been destroyed by anothers convictions. The worse aspect, however, is the lying. Having to support and try to convince others of policies you don't even agree with yourself. You look them in the eye and say one thing when all the time you're thinking - you're right you know. It does serve to remind me, however, that politics is a career."
==================
I am reminded of a quote from ex Gov Dreyfus of Wisconsin at a CEO leaders conference..... (sorry for his spelling).
He asked these CEO's
"How many of you are involved in your local or state government?"
in the room of over 300 CEO's only 2 raised their hands.
He went on to say
"Shame on you. You are delegating your futures to the professional politician,
who has never had to manage within a budget, run a company or any of the other skills in this room"
"Their main job is to get re-elected!"
He went on to encourage this group of CEO's to take some time out to get involved in their local
govts and not leave their long term fates to the pro professional politician.
If only we as citizens really took that advise seriously!!
Hugz,
Michelle Lynn
October 30, 2007 4:53 PM GMT
Are you sure it's apathy? Maybe sometimes people are tired of discussing politics and want to forget about such matters, even if for a moment. That doesn't make one apathetic. While I think having a political forum here is a good idea, my thoughts are usually elsewhere when I log into TW. In fact, one of my major fields is legal/constitutional history. Sometimes I just want a break from work.
Besides, I'm an Anarchist.
October 30, 2007 7:17 PM GMT
I'm not sure but mabe Robyn is right.
I've been to the clinics, seen the therapists.... been through the entire thing and I haven't really ran into any problem that politics or laws would have much effect on yet. From where I am standing now, things look rather well so I suppose I don't have many issues to cry about.
If I were from the US, I'd be crying about getting NHS which I suppose is the main difference between being TS in the US and in most EU countries.
I guess I just don't see any laws I'd like to see changed or political statements needed right now
October 30, 2007 8:45 PM GMT
Wow Marsha, I suppose anger management isn't covered in the US....
edit: but maybe I should try to clarify a little... I meant I probably wouldn't care what system covered med-care for TS as long as it was covered.
October 30, 2007 10:23 PM GMT
In the UK, we don't have ONE decent, honest politician.....they're all lying cheating b*****ds only interested in themselves & what they can get, with no regard for the people who vote for them.
The thing that bugs me most is when they vote themselves massive pay-rises & then expect the rest of us to accept, in some cases less than 3%.
Then they wonder WHY there's such a low turnout come election time......tis time they got their snouts out of the trough & did what the electorate actually PAY them to do!
Lol xxxxxxxxxxx
Anna-Marie
October 31, 2007 2:03 AM GMT
Does it matter? Capitalist governments are all evil and interchangeable.
October 31, 2007 5:28 PM GMT
Ok, this is rather funny to me....
I wrote a little statement about something and a small misunderstanding about a tiny, tiny bit in that statement caused a HUGE discussion about something completely different.
Deliberatly misunderstanding and spinning things off-topic, Isnt' that what politics is usually all about, in practice?
How can we all dislike politics so much, we seem to be really good at it!!
October 31, 2007 7:48 PM GMT
*hm*
I trust my polititcians and I really care for politics. I care so much that I am actually member of a political party and occasionaly go to different schools and inform what our party does and stands for. Most topics in the political forum concerns issues only related to the US and I know the people in the US value my oppinion on domestic matters just as much as I would value their oppinion on domestic politics in Sweden (very little).
I come here to read and discuss things related to transsexuality, including politics related to transsexuality. If I wanted to discuss politics related to something else, looking to trannyweb wouldn't be my first choice.