November 27, 2007 6:16 AM GMT
Indeed, if freedom of speech does not apply to all, it applies to none. I strayed briefly a few years ago from the Libertarian Party, and registered with the ultra liberal Green Party to express my support for Ralph Nader in the 2000 presidential election. I believed that if any third party candidate had ever had a shot, it would be Ralph. Not a shot at the White House, but a shot at showing that the two party system is obsolete.
Not long thereafter, a racist extremist called David Icke was out on a speaking tour, promoting the latest of his books containing the convoluted, borderline schizophrenic philosophy he promotes. The Green Party approached the operators of the venues where these speaking engagements were scheduled and began threatening them with all manner of heinous things, and they actually sponsored book burnings to demonstrate their view of Icke's philosophy.
Not so long ago there was a group that employed the identical tactics in the promotion of a philosophy that tore the whole western world asunder, but the books they were burning and the people they were threatening just happened to be espousing ideas that most rational people today agree with, though in the political climate in Germany at the time, maybe this could not be said. Does this mean that people like Icke deserve to be treated in the same way as the victims of National Socialism simply because we disagree with them?
Surely the views of these people are largely abhorrent, and should never be permitted to become the policy of any sane governing body. However, maybe it is just that sort of extreme manner of expression that can open a dialogue on such topics as immigration, for instance. Certainly, we all have very strong opinions on this subject, but to express a negative or even slightly intolerant opinion of these huddled masses yearning to breathe free at the expense of working naturalized citizens is considered to be insensitive at best, and racist at worst, but this issue is one of many that needs to be aired and discussed without being affected by emotion or sentiment, and those who express such an extreme negative view might leave it open for more rational minds to examine these kinds of issues realistically, and without fear of being painted with the same brush as Icke, the BNP and David Irving.
Perhaps we owe these people a great debt of gratitude for making it possible for us to examine and discuss these issues in this way, thanks to the enforcement of freedom of speech without restriction of any kind.
November 27, 2007 5:32 PM GMT
As I recall, Kermit was there to answer allegations that his finger smelled of bacon.
November 27, 2007 7:39 PM GMT
But Kermit was only invited because his nephew, Robin, had a seat at Oxford already. it wasn't quite at the bottom, nor was it at the top.
November 27, 2007 8:14 PM GMT
i'll have my 2 pennyworth - while being all for free speech and people's entitlement to express whatever views they hold it is unfortunate such abhorant views are allowed to be given dignity and credence in such a prestigeous forum at which such people as mother therasa have previously spoken.
call me an old cynic but the i feel the view that "we shall beat them down with our righteous arguements" a little naive for these people aren't going to say "oh yeah your right after all silly us"
not the oxford unions finest hour....
vikki - not wishing to be controversial
November 27, 2007 8:57 PM GMT
Vikki and others raise a valid point: While those who espouse the very worst ignoble ideas have a right to express them, institutions like the Oxford Union have no obligation to provide them with a venue. And certainly, no single debate will cause the hatemongers to change their minds.
But still, it is the free exchange of ideas that one hopes slowly leads toward truth, whatever that may be.
It can be a slow and painful process. Look at Burma to see how slowly power yields. And talk radio here in the US has become not the center of civic debate, but a format for No Nothings and the worst sort of xenophobes. As someone once said, freedom of the press belongs to those who own the presses. The power of the Internet may change that over time. And I like to think this exchange shows in some small way the power of ideas.
November 27, 2007 9:22 PM GMT
I actually used to live and work in Oxford and union have talks from everyone, the students have the right to say wat they think after all they are humans with feelings. If I'm getting this wrong I'm sorry but I used to live there and my family still do.
November 27, 2007 11:10 PM GMT
Freedom of Speech.
You either have or you don't. Freedom of Speech means having to fight for the right for ANYONE to Say Anything even though you don't agree with them. This can be very difficult but any type of Freedom comes with a cost.
Should this guy be shut up and his freedom of speech taken away because he has a different opinion of the Holocaust? No. Let him talk, if what he is saying is wrong, give him enough rope to hang himself. The facts can be proven.
Would it be worse to have the government shout him up because he doesn't toe the government line?
Yes it would be far worse, First it would be the holocaust that would be taboo, then what would be the next subject put on the government taboo list?
No matter how you look at it. "where does freedom of speech begin and end?" It begins with your right to question all things without the risk of jail, it ends the first time the government says you can't talk about.
Freedom of Speech is the Same as Freedom of thought and no one should tell you what to think.
The old saying is " I disagree with what he says but I will fight for his right to say it."
November 28, 2007 5:48 AM GMT
Here here Sandi. Well said.
November 28, 2007 5:48 PM GMT
Actually are rights are being quite seriously eroded. The fact is that over 400 public bodies ( I didn't know there were that many ) now have legal access to all your phone calls, text messages and emails. The phone companies and internet providers have provide this information upon request. If I was to express support or sympathy for the Palestinian cause, say how I can understand the motives of suicide bombers and why they commit terrorist outrages, I can be arrested and detained for up to 28 days without charge and they want to increase this to 56 days. I'm not a Muslim and I don't advocate or sympathise with terrorists but if someone overheard me saying this I could be arrested. But what would I have done except express an opinion. Rights are very easily taken away. As indeed they were in Nazi Germany, very quickly and with little protest. As the German theologian, Friedrich Bonhoeffer remarked, they arrested the Jews, the Communists, homosexuals, Jehovah Witnesses, and I didn't care because it didn't impinge upon my life. Then they came to arrest me.
November 28, 2007 6:44 PM GMT
i apreciate what you are saying porscha. but it is my opinion that if you were to talk on the phone about blowing yourself up in a public place or in support of these people then i feel you should be locked up for 28 days. i think 56 days is too much. on this discourse, whos rights do we need to be concerned about, the terrorist on the phone explaining what they are going to do, or familiy and loved ones being blown up in public places?
and about invasion of privacy, I am sure MA talking about her really expensive tights is not going to make front page news. sorry MA, didnt mean to upset you there!
at end of day, if it wasnt for these terrorists the government would have no reason to impose these laws. anyway, i think there are bigger issues a foot...
the way imigration is at the mo i believe in 50 years time british muslim voters will out number non-muslim british - who will they vote in? will UK become a muslim state? will our children's children's females get their heads chopped off for being disobedient? will the government provide a pamphlet on how to name our pets, teedy bears etc?
oh, i hope i am not being too controversial!
November 28, 2007 6:54 PM GMT
Freedom of Speech is a Right, However, there is no Right that protects us from being offended.
Now Immigration is a whole different problem. Both in Europe and the United States immigration is changing the demographics of the countries involved. Just look what is happening in France today!
November 29, 2007 5:27 AM GMT
I am shocked and apalled that Maryanne's need for 74 quid designer tights is not worthy of the front page, and would remind you all that it has been some time since my body was public.
November 29, 2007 10:24 AM GMT
I would fight my all to ensure nick griffin and david irving got the right to free speech and had the opportunity to speak publicly. And when they took the stand i would excercise my right to walk away and leave! so i wouldnt have to listen to their drivel.
December 1, 2007 7:55 PM GMT
" Didst thou forget that men prefer peace, and even death, to freedom of choice in the knowledge
of good and evil?
The Grand Inquisitor; The Brother's Karamazov, Fyodor Dostoevsky
November 26, 2007 10:44 PM GMT
OK.....so the BNP are a legal political party, but why is their leader nick griffin being ALLOWED to air
his parties bigoted, almost racist views by the oxford union. Its giving the likes of himself & this David Irving what amounts to free publicity, but who really wants to hear them spout their virtriolic garbage in the first case because THATS all it is. If any ordinary person said things like nick griffin does,he'd had up for racial abuse.
SHAME on oxford union!
Anna-Marie
November 28, 2007 7:02 AM GMT
I'm not the least bit bothered by such people being allowed to speak in public. Mum built Wellingtons and had bombs and V-rockets dropped on her, and her house destroyed. I can't believe anyone seriously thinks the British people are stupid enough to let Nazi's take power in the UK. Who dropped all those bombs on the UK? I saw the bomb shelters at my school when I was a child. I know what Nazi's are about. Let them speak. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.
November 29, 2007 11:22 AM GMT
Those who will give up their rights in the pursuit of security will lose both and deserve neither.