Hi,
Although the count of the votes in this Referendum to pass the 28th. Amendment of the Constitution Bill, allowing the Irish Government to ratify the E.U. Lisbon Treaty, is still taking place, all estimates indicate that the Referendum has been lost, by a sizeable majority!

Dermot Ahern, the Irish Justice Minister, at 1 pm Irish time, confirmed that the "No vote" had been victorious!

Due to this result, the Lisbon Treaty can not be Ratified, and as it requires ALL member states to ratify it, the Treaty cannot be passed into European Law.

It'll be interesting now to see what happens, as it was claimed that, without ratification, "chaos" will reign in the EU "Corridors of Power", as, without the Treaty, the day to day administration would be unable to function properly!

Hugs,
Angela. xx.

Hi All.................

The Official Result of the Referendum on the 28th. Amendment of the Constitution, to allow the Irish Government to Ratify The Lisbon Treaty of the European Union .............................

YES ............................................. 46.6%
NO ............................................... 53.4%

Therefore, Ireland cannot ratify the Treaty, and, as the Treaty MUST be ratified by ALL Member States, to all intents and purposes, the Lisbon Treaty is now "dead in the water"!

Hugs,
Angela. xx.

Hi all ..............

It's been really quite funny watching Irish television this evening, hearing all our, so called, politicians attempting to "weasel-out" of he repercussions of the result!
They refuse, point blank, to answer the direct question ... "Is the Treaty now dead?"
They all are trying to suggest that the voters didn't really understand what they were voting for !!!!
What an insult to the Irish people !!!!

We understood perfectly what we were voting for .......... a massive transfer of EVERY member states "sovereignty" to unelected beurocrats in Brussells !

Like most of you have said, I also am VERY pro-european, having lived and worked for many years throughout Europe, and, in general, am also pro-EU, but I voted no yesterday, as I feel that the Lisbon Treaty was "that step too far"!

Hugs,
Angela. xx.

Oh ................. Carren,

Forgot to say a moment ago, in my earlier post ..............

When you say that you're happy the Government here "had the guts" to allow the people to have their voice heard in this, believe me .................... if it could have been done without a Referendum, they would have junmped at the chance !!
It's simply because the Irish Constitution demands that any treaty/pact/ or other form of "understanding" with any other country, must be approved by the people, and the Irish Constitution so amended to show the peoples' approval of the said treaty.

So, it wasn't a piece of good government, it was simply forced on them to hold a Referendum.
Otherwise, the treaty would have been approved, like all the other Member States "on the nod" in their Parliament.

Hugs,
Angela. xx.

Hi Rae, hunni,....................

Just one thing I want to "pull you up on", ..............
It's a common error, but an error that a lot of people make.

The name "Eire" hasn't been the name of the Country for a number of years now.
The proper name is The Republic of Ireland.

It's not anything of "importance" to mistakenly use Eire, but, as we're all trying to learn from each other here, I just thought that everyone should know "the proper name".

Hugs,
Angela. xxx.

Hi girls,

Now that I have stopped laughing so much, I can to post a response in relation to the excuse of the Irish Government.
To suggest that the reason they lost the vote, "Was because the voters didn't really understand what they were voting for" is the single biggest admission of their abject failure to have explained it properly!!!


On the wider issues of Europe, I am neither a Eurofile, or a Europhobe.
I am open minded to the whole thing. And that includes total 100% commitment to being a fully paid up member at the heart of Europe, or being 100% outside of the whole thing.

I dont fear the people of Europe, I think that under the thin Vanier of national identities, we are all pretty much the same, have the same needs, and share the same hopes and fears.

I do mistrust the governments of Europe though. Especially my own Government, who’s response to most things is to simply lie. If I don’t trust my own Government, who are suppose to be accountable to me because I am a voter, then how can I trust other Governments that are not accountable to me, because I cannot vote against them?

This treaty or constitution has been rejected twice in one guise and a third time in a new guise. It should be clear to the European government by now that the people of Europe do not accept this treaty. It is an insult to dismiss the rejections and press ahead with ratification. If it wasnt possible to do this last week unless the Irish voted yes, its not possible to do it this week now that they have voted no. Its not good enough to say that there is no plan B. Plan A has been rejected. Plan A2.0 has been rejected. If there really isnt a plan B, now is the time plan one. Listen to the fears of the people of Europe, and devise a new plan. A plan that will allow Europe to continue to function and expand, but not to sweep away all that we hold so dear.

The people of the Netherlands, France and Ireland are to be congratulated for challenging the European government.

Here in the states, they are building a major freeway from Mexico to Canada, and going ahead with plans to establish a North American Union without a referendum and against the objections of organized labor, trade groups and if they knew it, most likely the majority of American citizens.

This goes way beyond NAFTA, to the extent that Mexican trucks that are not subject to the ICC safety and insurance regulations are being allowed to work American roads and undercut the rates of American drivers. Cheap illegal labor is flooding into the US from the south, displacing American workers and lining the pockets of the fat cats.

All of this, as well as the EU efforts is part of the master plan toward a "new world order" (sound familiar?). All the referendums on earth, on either side of the ocean will not prevent this. Within ten years, the EU and this North American Union will prevail and will unite. National sovereignty and individual national constitutions will be meaningless. The World Bank and their ilk will rule the earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w[...]n_Union

The European Union. Hmmmmm. Neat theory, difficult to implement. A number of problems arise:

1) Human beings are naturally tribal; we see differences between us before we see simlarities, mis-trust before tolerance
2) When given power, we often use it (in the best intention) without looking at the true cost of the implications

These issues do not go away without the effort and determination of individuals to self-improve. The solution is not with governments but with individuals; the problems do not belong to society but to each one of us. By voting 'No' the Irish have performed as service to the whole of Europe (whether they realise it or not)

The EU is, at present, a mildly corrupt and largely un-accountable organisation. Why are there two parliaments? Why do the politicians ans all their staff transfer between them every six months? Why have the EU accounts not been approved by auditors?

There are more fundamental problems in the EU than the adoption of the Lisbon Treaty, but ay least the Irish vote has hamstrung them for a little while.

Debbie

The common thread seems to be that we should be grateful to the Irish people for rejecting the Lisbon Treaty. Well I think that's right. It is, after all, just the European Constitution by another name and that has already been rejected twice. It shows that democracy works, that given the chance people can decide and think for themselves, and that they are willing to oppose the bullying and arrogance not just of the bureaucrats in Brussels but of the political elites that govern in every country in the European Union. But we shouldn't fool ourselves into believing it will make any difference. The European project isn't going to be de-railed by a million or so Irish voters. Neither does it leave the EU in a state of turmoil as is widely reported. They will either hold another referendum in Ireland, adopting the appropriate carrot and stick ( a bit embarrassing but it has been done before ) dress it up again as a part of something else, or merely shunt the Irish aside for now and deal with them at a later date. The whole affair does, however, reveal just how far the democratic process is removed from the centre of political power. Now I say this as someone who is very pro-European. Indeed I believe in the concept of the Federal European State and would willingly give up national sovereignty to achieve it. I would adopt the euro, have a European Constitution, a European army, and one European Government. Why should we be afraid of that? People to readily forget that we have had two world wars, major conflagrations started in Europe by near neighbours, in less than a hundred years. It is very easy to say that can never happen again. No one can ever see it coming. Who in the spring of 1914 could imagine the carnage of the First World War; who in early 1919 could have conceived of another world war a mere 21 years later. A conflict that revealed the "war to end all wars" to be little more than a skirmish. Now people might say that easy access, instant communication, and cross-border cooperation make any such thing in the future to be inconcievable. Just as they said the free market made all nations interdependent and war impossible, they said that in the1880's. But the irony is that no one is trying to create a European State, quite the opposite. It has a momentum all of its own. Its existence determines its progress and evolution. The politicians of every nation in the EU are terrified of its implications. No President, Prime Minister or ruling party wants to see their power diluted or eroded by a central organisation beyond their control or influence. But this is what the EU means and this is why they are afraid to diffuse power to their electorates. The Irish people rejected a european treaty and in doing so their own government became irrelevant. If the people of the EU member states voted on european issues, laws, treaties etc what becomes of the nation state and those who wield power. They cease to govern and merely administer. Yes I am very pro-european, perhaps too much so for most people. But that is the theory not the fact. The EU is corrupt, populated by self-serving bureaucrats and placemen, and in the thrall of politicians of all nations. But probably no more so that the national governments of those member states. When the politicians cease to behave like cowards, when the EU truly opens itself up to the democratic principle and embraces its people then I will willingly support it. One People, One State, One Leader - now who was it who said that! For now, bravo the Irish!

Porscha,
I can only echo just about everything you've said!
It has been interesting over the past few weeks seeing how the EU attempts to "rectify" the situation caused by the No vote here. They've given the Irish Government util October to come up with some sort of "plan B2 to sort it out (reading between the lines, this says to me, that they haven't a clue what to do, so, you, Ireland, go away, and get it sorted out".
As has been suggested here already, that "fix" will, most likely be, a Re-run of the Referendum, under another guise! But, listening to the reactions here to that,it would seem to be a very dangerous thing to do, as, after the politicians, both here and across Europe, insulting the intellegence of the Irish electorate, by telling them that they are too stupid to have understood what they were voting about, they now run the very strong possibility of, not just losing any re-run, but of losing it by an even greater margin!!
A number of people I've spoken to, who voted Yes originally, have said they would definitely vote No i any re-run!

One of the main points given as why we voted NO, is that we allowed ourselves to be "side-tracked" into believing that the Treaty would effect a number of things that the EU Politicians state have NOTHING to do with the Treaty.

Ok............... let's just look at one example (there are a number, but this one will suffice). ..........................
Irish Neutrality .....................................
It is claimed that Irish Neutrality will, in no way, be effected by the Lisbon Treaty.
Yet, it was one of the factors claimed, that "side-tracked" the electorate, and caused us to vote No.
Under the Irish Constitution, Irish neutrality is, probably, one of the most important, and highly protected clauses.
Irish neutrality is, possibly, the most tightly defined neutrality in the world!
It, specifically, be-bars Irish defence forces from taking part in ANY aggresive action, against ANY nation, except in the case of any, clearly defined, threat to The State. (and this State alone ............... it doesn't cover threats to any "friendly" other states).
As part of the Lisbon Treaty, provision is made for the setting up of a joint Foreign Policy, with regards to the EU's support fot the UN, and the provision of forces to the Un for eace-keeping missions (as happens now), but under the EU umbrella, as opposed to individual countries offering troops, etc. Ireland always has, proudly, taken part in these missions, and never would consider changing that stance.
But, as we're Constitutionally restrained, all our troops MUST only ever be used in a defensive/support capacity. They can NEVER be used in an offensive way!
Under the Treaty, there was a concern that this might change, as we would, no longer, have direct control over the actions of our troops on EU/UN duties.
We were assured that the Treaty would not effect our neutrality in this, or any other way! I'm prepared to, possibly, concede that specific point ( only time would tell), but, what the "politicians" failed to address, and still chose to ignore, is another Constitutional guarantee to our TOTAL neutrality. This is that we, as a Nation, will NEVER give Assistance/Aid/or Financial Support to ANY aggressor, in any part of the World!
Simply by being part of the EU, post Lisbon Treaty, would not just compromise, but shatter that Guarantee!!
Our money would be used to support any EU force "aggressively" peace-keeping in some corner of the World. Our money would be used to purchase equipment and munitions for that force, etc., the ways it would break our Constitution is an endless list !!
Now, try and tell me that Ireland's Neutrality would not be effected by passing the Treaty!!
That's just one example ............. there are many more!

As to the talk of Re-running the Referendum in a slightly modified guise. there's a new "slant" that has started to be spoken about here over the past few weeks, that just might "bring pause" to ideas of that!!
We here, in the "West" pride ourselves in our "democracies", holding them up as shining examples to any "tin-pot 3rd world country" whom we regard as not giving proper rights to it's People.
The current case in point is Zimbabwe!
I'm not going to discuss the horrendous events taking place there at present here, (that's for another thread), but, if we look at what it's all about there, we see that it's the attempt by a Megalomaniac to hold on to power, even after his electorate voted him out a few weeks ago. He's re-running his election, and would continue to manipulate the results, until such time as the electorate said "enough!, we'll vote for m Mugabe!!"
We condemn his refusal o accept the will of his People, yet, here, where we pride ourselves on the quality of our Democracies, we're maybe going to do exactly the same!!

I know that a number of Yes voters from previously, will, if a re-run happens, vote No, as they're of the same view as a banner at the European Parliament a few days after the vote, which asked "Just What Part of No do you Not Understand?"

As Pro-Europe myslf, as I said in an earlier post here, I voted No, as I thought the Treaty that "step too far", and will, most definitely NOT change in any re-run. In fact, tha e whole thing could very well backfire on them totally, as it seems, any re-run could result in an even more resounding No result!

Hugs,
Angela. xx.

Hi Rae, and all ..................

As Rae says, the EU President has "told" Ireland that they must re-run the Referendum !!

M. Sarkosy, the current EU President is visiting Dublin next Monday, and yesterday, in a pre-visit interview, he said that, as he saw it, Ireland must run the Referendum again!

Immediately after this was heard here in Ireland, the "No" Campaign swung into action, and, already, the "No Campaign" is up and running.
Already, a "fighting fund" has opened, to finance the Campaign, and it already, after just 36 hours, has raised over E12 million. (one individual, alone. donated E10 million to the fund!). So, if the "Politicians" who support a re-running of the Referendum, think that the Irish people will tolerate this insult to their intellegence, and to the meaning of "democracy" in Ireland, they're in for a rather large, rude shock !!!
The last Public Opinion Poll on this situation, was taken just over a week ago, and showed that, whilst in the Referendum the No vote was roughly 54%, it now stands at 62%, and growing!!
So, I think it's fair to say, if they do re-run it, the No majority WILL be significantly larger than before!

Let them try and talk their way out of that one !!!

Hugs,
Angela. xx.

Hi Angela,

It must be nice to live in a country that treats is citizens as intelligent and able to make decisions for themselves.

Andrea xx

"As Rae says, the EU President has "told" Ireland that they must re-run the Referendum !! "

The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. It's nice to see that the EU politicians are just as stupid as ours.

Hugs,
Marsha

Yes you WILL go back and vote again, and you will go on voting,
UNTIL YOU GET THE ANSWER RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn whats the matter with these people? Cant even get a simple referendum right. Jeeeeeez

Rae ....................

Glad to see that you, finally, got your priorities right !!!

ALWAYS !! ................... Shopping first !!

Seriously though ........................ A certain Cabinet Minister was interviewed on Irish television last night, and when asked what the Government's reaction was to M. Sarkozy's comments, his typically "waffling" reply more, or less, said that, while Sarkozy couldn't TELL the Irish Government what to do, the "re-running" of the Referendum in the future was something they were "looking at".
When he was asked if he was "worried" about the predictions of an even greater rejection of the Treaty, he said that he had "full confidence" in the Irish people to "listen to their politicians" and "not be sidetracked by other issues", and return a resounding Yes vote !!!!!!!!!

If this is the attitude of the whole Government, not only are they like ostriches, with their heads buried in the sand, but they are as blind as bats, if they can't see that the country is SO anti-treaty, that not only will the electorate reject it, over and over again, but will make them pay for their "arrogance" towards the Irish people, in the General Election, due in about 18 months time!

Hugs,
Angela. xx.

Thanks Angela.

I, for one, am certainly pleased to see the 'No' vote win. Its a shame we did'nt get the democratic opportunity to vote here!

I'm sure that all in Brussels will be working hard to find ways of getting the treaty in whether we want it or not....

Much love

Rae xx

Glad you got the right result Angela.......shame our gutless government wont let us have the vote too!


LOL xxxxxxx
Anna-Marie

I'm pro-Europe. I want the euro, I want closer co-operation between European states. I suspect I'm in a minority though.

Angela, Eire has a good constitutional idea that the rest of Europe should adopt. We should all be allowed a say on whether we want to adopt a major change or not!

I will freely admit I simply don't know where I stand on 'the European' question. Part of me thinks it'd be better for the UK if we got out of the European Union completely. Especially when 80% of our 'laws' are in reality directives from Brussels [recent Peter Lilley MP speech].

I'm all for a Common Market, a trading agreement within the European zone, but I don't want to see a United States of Europe with its own army, embassies etc etc.

I like the difference each country brings. I want Italy to have Italians, I want France to give birth to the French, I want to see the individual countries have an individual identity.

But I also want to stand shoulder to shoulder with my fellow Europeans in time of trouble.

I'm no economist so can't say if the Euro is a good idea. But I mourn the loss of the individual countries currency. Its part of their identity.

But, in mitigation, I miss Pounds, Shillings and Pence, a great British currency that went all the way back to Rome. It was fun and it made eveyone more adept at mental arithmatic!

Ho hum.

Rae xx

Robyn, we usually disagree on things but this time I have to disappoint you and agree with you.
These things will probably happen no matter what the majority of the people want.

I've often been amazed and saddened about how far from the people and how elitist the US and EU politicians seems to be but to be honest I haven't seen it in the local Swedish politicians until this issue showed up. Here they say that the ratification of the EU constitution is not something that should be done in a referendum since it is a too complicated issue. Referendums they say should be held about things that can be easily comprehended like YES or NO to nuclear power but when it comes to things such as how the politicians should rule me and all the other peasants then it is best we don't have a say since we don't understand our own best.

We get to vote every 4:th year and then the election is about a lot of issues, perhaps they had better take that away too. I mean, it isn't any less complicated than voting for a new constitution.

I'm amazed the people in Holland and France who voted NO the last time isn't protesting against the fact that first they voted no to the constitution and a few years later their politicians ratify the constitution anyway. Or maybe they are protesting and the media isn't reporting on it were I live.

Thank you people of Ireland, you were our last hope of sending a message. Too bad that message meant "they don't know what they voted against so now we have to explain it to them so they can vote yes instead" to the politicians.

Sorry about the negative tone but this issue has gotten even me who is involved in a political party to wonder where the world and its politicians are heading.

Hey Angela,

lol, no worries - always happy to be corrected! Just showing my age I guess.....

My heartfelt thanks to you and all the good folk of the Republic of Ireland for their common sense!

Much love

Rae xx

Hi Angela - and your fellow countrymen/women and little ones,

So, having rejected the treaty through a sensible referendum and the honesty of the ballot box, Europe has finally given its solution...

'... Ireland will have to hold a re-vote on the EU Treaty ...' says the current President of the EU.

http://www.voanews.com/en[...]a62.cfm

Good to see democracy in action

Much love

Rae xxx

What part of NO does the arrogant little french sh*t Sarkozy understand??. The Referendum on the lisbon treaty delivered a NO vote, so why is it that the arrogant SOB is demanding they vote again.....just because the result DIDNT suit him & his cronies in the EC?. One thing's for sure, if the irish people do vote again, then the result will be an even bigger NO!!

I'd LOVE to see them try & weasel out of that!!!

Lol xxxxxxxxxx
Anna-Marie

Hi Angela et al,

What you say is pretty amazing - and pretty heartwarming! [I know that if I happened to have a spare ten million euro's knocking about the house just where it would go!] [Ok, ok, you're right. After donating to Trannyweb, the second stash of ten million euro's I found in my house...]

At the moment, its only Ireland thats showing an appreciation of democracy. We, in the UK, should hang our head in shame.

I truly hope - with all my heart - that if a second vote is forced on your country, the 'no' campaign has enough ooomph, guts, truth and money to win. And win with a larger percentage.

Surely, even the European Dictatorship could get that message...

So much love to you, hun.

Rae xxx

Ok, Ok, Ok, I admit I was wrong in my last post.

I confess the SECOND ten million euro's I found in my house would go to TW, the THIRD would go to the Irish no vote...

... the FIRST ten million euro's would go on make-up, some good tops, shoes, a few bags, some nice dresses ...

I know you'd understand!

Much love

rae xxx