ADMINISTRATOR COMMENT: "Some of the posts in this thread have been edited, or hidden, for content, however the main topic and comments regarding the problem that occurred have been left because BOTH are valid and appropriate content, even if off-topic. If some posts seem to be a non sequitur, the fault is mine for my editing, occasionally removing an entire post, which may have reduced or added to your confusion, and is not the writer's"- Wendy Larsen

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OK, so the title grabbed your attention. The dictionary definition of femininity is "characteristic of or appropriate or unique to women." So what the heck does that mean? It seems there are lots of different definitions around here and I think it would be fun to hear what femininity means to different people. I hope both guys and gals will answer because there isn't any one right answer I would think.

I might be more conservative than most but I see femininity as caring how you present yourself, trying to look the best you can at any given moment and hiding negatives that may be going on in your life. I see it being showing honest concern for what is going on with others. There are also the gender markers such as the way a woman walks, talking with her hands and the smoothness of her skin but I see that less as a factor because you can highlight other areas to draw attention away from flaws. So for me, femininity is how a woman interacts with others. I'm guessing some might think femininity is more the sexual image a woman presents, like heels and an obvious sway in the hips. What do you think?

Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha, you sure have some strange idea's!

Quote- I see femininity as caring how you present yourself, trying to look the best you can at any given moment and hiding negatives that may be going on in your life. I see it being showing honest concern for what is going on with others.

Surely these are just as valid for both sexes? You're comment about clothes are irrelevant, some of my best (GG) friends wear jeans and T shirts,same any man's but still look feminine? I don't know the answer to your question but it's far more subtle and yet more powerful than anything you've suggested.

Huggles

Becca


PS: Flaws? We're all different, individual people, very few fit into the "perfect" box, but that doesn't mean the rest of us are flawed.

Rebecca, I welcome your opinions. I think as you said an answer is hard but it is more powerful yet more subtle. I was trying to say I feel it is more expression, not just physical attire, makeup and hairdo's. I completely agree jeans an T's can be very feminine. Along the same line I said trying to look your best at any given moment, that ties in with your friend in jeans because she took the time to shop for jeans that expressed herself. Face it, there are plenty of styles and shades of colors, some look down right awful. How about spandex pants on an obese person, definitely not a description of femininity.

And where did you get the idea I said clothing was irrelevant? Nowhere did I say that and if you thought about what I said about flaws you would realise that clothes are one way for a woman to accentuate the positive and downplay the negative. We all have what we percieve as our own flaws.



Huggles
Marsha

Geeeez after reading this thread I think you could describe Femininity as being a BITCH!! lol

Amazing how that works..., isn't it. Personally I think a lot of it comes from the perceived tone we read in the writing. Some of it is because of international differences. Sometimes you can read something several times and see a whole new meaning. Most of the time it is unintentional but it turns out to be enough to spark a flame. And the flame grows, and just as you commented about yourself doing the something, others fuel the fire. All because of a little spark. I think many of us could use some work on preventing that first spark, yes I include myself, but I'm not alone.

As for why the same old stuff. I'm kind of thinking there are plenty of new members that this is all new to. And why do psychologists ask the same questions many different ways, maybe to provoke thought. With that in mind I do hope you understand. I want you to know that you are most welcome to participate if you would like and if you don't feel you want to add anything, that is fine also.

Hugs,
Marsha

Interesting subject, for me i think femininity is all about experiencing, feeling and expressing emotions which a lot of guys find it hard to do. The emotions which i like to experience and express the most is kindness, caring and of course love and affection.

Empathy. Its the one word that occurs to me. Feeling and feeling for people was something alien to me in my former life, but when I felt comfortable with people seeing this side of me it developed. Not that I am implying men can't express empathy, merely that from a personal experience its what I consider more feminine in me than other traits.

Thanks Wendy. I bookmarked rexanne. I think I'll send it to the local school district. It might help.
hugs
Gracie

Wendy, you probably did a better job asking and stating what I was really after. I was more interested in what other's perceive to be feminine and my thinking was outward appearance has it's place, but so many other verbal and non verbal actions solidify one's perception of femininity. I think key words in defining femininity are effortlessly and unconscientiously.

As for coming out to your mother I wish you the very best. My father thinks that my mother probably knew, but sadly I never spoke with her about it. I think she would have been ok with it. It is all about understanding and sometimes it doesn't happen as quickly as we would like. Earlier today I happened to read the email my wife sent me 3 months after I first came out to her, this was when she first began to accept me. It took her time to understand and it happened at her own pace. I guess what i'm trying to say is be patient.

Hugs,
Marsha

I see it as something overall. Not just any one thing, the whole person.
As much as I want to be a woman I don't realy see myself as feminine.


Wikipedia
This doesn't realy clear things up.

Femininity is the opposite of everything I hated about myself.

Hopefully, I have managed to aquire some along the way..........

Nikki

Is THIS femininity? Ladies, please avoid personal attacks and stick to the original topic. I'm already considering deleting some of the inappropriate comments herein. Do not be surprised if I remove sections of this thread. I would prefer you all reconsidered and removed those parts yourself. It will not be personal. The Forums are not for flaming.

Okay girls, can we NOT start swinging at each other in here please?

That doesn't mean you have to agree with each other and please do disagree and state your own opinions but can we leave out the personal comments when posting in a public forum. If you really need to speak to someone on a personal level please do it via PM and NOT in the forums.

Now, if you don't mind, can we get this thread back on track before it gets moved out of sight.

Nikki

ADMINISTRATOR COMMENT: "Some of the posts in this thread have been edited for content, however the main topic and comments regarding the problem that occurred have been left because BOTH are valid and appropriate content, even if off-topic. If some posts seem to be a non sequitur, the fault is mine for my editing, occasionally removing an entire post, which may have reduced or added to your confusion, and is not the writer's fault" This action was taken to reduce public conflict, remove personal attacks and to save the entire thread from removal or suspension. It is not a comment on the validity of the post's content, but merely the way and/or place in which it was communicated. Every attempt has been made to be impartial and to conform to Katie's indications as to what content is acceptable. .- Wendy Larsen

Perhaps these links will prove useful to some. I own the book "The Art and Power of Being a Lady"
By Noelle Cleary, Dini von Mueffling. It is not aimed at the TG/TS community, but at gg's.

http://books.google.com/b[...]PPP1,M1

The second is a website for gg's with a section on "Advice and Resources on Being and Raising a Lady" "Many women have had a rude awakening and realized that coaching is necessary to reconnect with that feminine part that refuses to come out. Ladylike isn’t a bad thing and as with everything good in life, there’s a time and a place"

http://www.rexanne.com/ladies.html

Perhaps they will help stimulate the original topic. I have found that they stimulated my thinking and provided some guidance. Being a woman is natural. Being a lady is not. Is femininity natural or learned?

If you, like me, wish for more than merely cross-dressing and want to not be an embarrassment and want to be accepted in public, even if you will never "pass", then it seems to me that learning proper behavior is the key to being comfortable in unfamiliar situations. I believe a lady can be comfortable among those who are not far easier than those who are not can be comfortable among ladies.....although a lady would never seek to make a non-lady more uncomfortable than she already was. In fact quite the opposite. I had the pleasure of spending a period of time around one of the famous, etiquette columnists. At that time it was a surprise how unpretentious and gracious she was, making everyone around her comfortable during a time of great personal stress. In her presence you were relaxed, not worried about manners; yet you were also motivated to remember your manners by how she made you feel. In fact, you may find scrupulous politeness, without warmth as the only indication that a lady dislikes you, the way a male may only joke and kid with friends and not those he dislikes. Socially, you can hardly lose by being polite and ladylike in a difficult situation. This does not mean giving up your rights and needs. With businesses, these days, sending it's personnel to etiquette schools at company expense, it probably pays to know your manners when trying to gain and keep employment before, during and after transitioning.

I have never, ever had any problems or issues and a healthy dose of good manners and proper behaviour goes a long way to acheiving that. People are becoming more accepting, (in my experience anyway), and by behaving like the lady you are presenting to be will help you to be more accepted. Not to mention the good way it presents TG people as a whole.

Being nice costs nothing, so use the appropriate behaviour and you will most likely have it returned in kind.

Nikki

http://www.merriam-webste[...]ininity


femininity.

Main Entry:

Date:
14th century

1 : the quality or nature of the female sex

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So Webster's seems to think it's all encompassing. Perhaps this is the defining difference between cross-dressers and more "pink"-end of the TG spectrum T girls. When you are, or move beyond, not only the clothing of maleness but the behaviors, thinking patterns, emotions and needs of males and feel or develop the female-brain attributes, you are probably moving toward femininity. This is not all-inclusive, even among gg's, as we are individuals. Genetics, hormones, environment and experiences affect our values and interests. So, perhaps, the question is not "What" is femininity as much as what do we each perceive and seek as goals in achieving femininity. My Zen studies tell me that femininity is natural and learned and is done without thought as well as out of habit. Like a small child releasing your finger to grab a helium balloon string.....without thought or planning and EFFORTLESSLY. This can be a difficult or easy change depending on your Self. To have to switch from Masculine-Mode to Feminine-Mode can be very hard for those closer to the blue end of the TG spectrum. For those who are more to the pink end, this may come quite naturally or with far less work until you get to the far pink end where behaving in a Masculine-Mode can be very difficult.

I have found that I seem to unconsciously project a more feminine character in my thinking in some situations. This worried me at first as "femme-side leakage" as I was still in deep fear of being "outed".. After 10 days of interaction with my TS friend and being 95% in Feminine-Mode, then switching back to Masculine-Mode for over two weeks with a gg who is not aware of my TG status (despite having told me that she likes that I have a tough and a gentle side....out of the mouth of Babes, lol) I have been facing coming out to my mother in a few days....and my brain has gone into denial of my TG nature though it logically accepts the facts....still it questions it at a time I need to be confident in my TG nature to communicate my true self to mom. So I'm back here today in some time alone to "kiss Sleeping Beauty" and wake her up. This works because the Zen effect activates here. Wendy naturally dominates my Self while here. TW means acceptance of my true Self and fears that may stimulate Masculine-"Self" vaporize as my True-Self reappears in strength. I will probably be on TW just before I tell her, reading my blogs for the last 5 years to remind myself that doubt can be a habit too.

I'm concerned about the coming exchange with Mom, but not afraid as I was when I came Out to Sundance. I'm more concerned about Mom, not me, but if I don't tell her Now, I may lose the chance forever. It's definitely another life-changing experience and I want her to meet Wendy. This will make this "coming Out" different from my others where I was Him telling my friends about Wendy, not "being" her. It's a shame I've arranged for my my femme things to be sent home already and they are out of my hands...in case Mom want's to "see her daughter". It could end up badly, but I think it will not. I'm hoping Mom will grant me the name she wanted for the daughter she never had. If she does accept my nature, I plan to spend some extra time with her before heading home to CA.I

I do not want to hijack this thread with my personal issues, but i think my point is that femininity is a place to be and there are ways to reach that place if you were not born with the certainty in your Self and need to reach it and make it your habit to be as feminine as you are as much as you can until you find your own balance and comfort.