You might be wondering why I posted this letter I wrote to my old church back on February 6, 2009. I posted it here because I realized Google searches often come up with TW forum posts and I hope those Googling Savannah Christian Church will stumble on this and see what Savannah Christian Church is really about. It will also serve as a learning aid to those who may eventually face a similar experience.

If you are an outsider and found this by searching about Savannah Christian Church, this letter is an exact copy of what was sent to SCC on 2/6/2009 after a meeting between myself, my wife and the pastor, the prior day. The last names of individuals are removed for privacy. The letter covers topics discussed in a meeting that was a followup to my wife and I asking if I could participate in women's bible study.

Dear Brian,

What has happened to Savannah Christian Church? When I first came to SCC, I came with an open minded willingness to learn more about Christ. Then on October 28, 2007 I listened to a sermon about how SCC is opening its doors to homosexuals because what better place for them to develop a better relationship with Jesus Christ. Although I am not homosexual, I did see that as my opening to talk about my situation. I thought I was welcome. What happened?

I am rather simple minded and just as you are aware I have issues in my ability to comprehend various materials, I also am not the best at having answers on the tip of my tongue. So therefore I would like to respond more to what was discussed yesterday. I apologize for anything that came across as confrontational in our meeting. I believe this is more of an issue of understanding and I hope I can convey that.

I would like to start with what I interpret was the biggest question you asked, “Why did I not tell Jollie before we married and before we had children?” After our meeting yesterday I realized how easy it is to answer that. I didn’t tell her because of the fear of exactly what happened to me yesterday at your office. It was the fear of rejection, and yes, whether that was your intention or not, I feel rejected. Back then both society and churches had little if any understanding about transsexuals and because of that I, like most, kept it quiet. So yes I did what society expected, married and had a family. And with that came responsibilities I dealt with the best I could. Next I waited until my kids were grown to an age they could understand. Now please reread the first paragraph and see how that fits in. I have found society as a whole has been willing to be more understanding and accepting of my condition. I thought SCC was also, but our meeting showed otherwise.

One thing that truly stood out in our meeting was your, and what appears to be all of SCC leaders, misunderstanding of what transsexuals really are. The image you painted for me was a homophobic baseless perverted stereotype that really showed nobody made any attempt to research or understand what transsexuals really are. I believe you were wrong in even allowing the discussion of child molesters into our conversation. Then you talked about how others might see Jollie and me as homosexuals. I refer back to the opening paragraph and the sermon I heard on October 28, 2007.

As you stated several times in our meeting, I have conducted myself wisely and in a mature way to this point. All I can say is, then why do you believe I would not continue to conduct myself in that manor? I have given you no reason at all to think otherwise. I am not that child molester or perverted homosexual you are afraid of. I feel you have sadly misjudged me.

Jollie and I have come to SCC for one thing and that is to develop a better relationship with Jesus Christ. That was the single purpose of requesting that I be allowed to participate in the women’s ministries. I learn through interaction and Jollie felt I could gain better understanding in women’s ministries such as bible study. Something that really didn’t come up in the meeting was whether or not women were even asked. My experience has been the women are the most accepting of my situation. Unfortunately men tend to be overly protective and fear the unknown greater when it comes to their families. I understand you don’t want to set a wolf loose with the sheep. I just don’t know what to say to convince you I’m not a wolf. What I fear most is SCC’s refusing to listen or learn at all.

Getting back to another hot topic was your fear of how this was going to affect my family. I did feel you completely ignored what Jollie had to say about that. I know you don’t know our full background and therefore can only question or respond to things based on your experience. But in your own words you have stated you don’t understand much about transgender and have had no prior experience with someone like me. So with that I ask how do you know? How do you know this will affect my family in an adverse way? Are you guessing? Rather I feel you are trying to compare my situation with the homophobic perverted stereotype that so many have conjured up over the years. SCC has found me guilty and doesn’t even know of what. My four adult children all accept me. As Jollie mentioned, but you failed to explore, was she feels I am much better around the family now compared to before I came out about my condition. And all I ask is please give me a chance to show you and SCC I am a good person. Please don’t wrongly judge me based on baseless stereotypes.

You do come across as worrying greatly about the kids and I see that as a good thing. Like you I still to this day worry about mine. However you are worrying over fear of the unknown, lots of what ifs. You have expressed your concern that I may confuse the kids. Speaking from real experience, the kids are far more understanding than adults. It is the unfounded fears that adults instill in the kids that perpetuates wrongful stereotyping. All I can say is will it ever end? What is more confusing, you keeping me looking like I’m neither male nor female, or you conveying a wrongful stereotype? Once again I can only ask based on your experience with my behavior, a trust that I would use wise and mature judgment in my future actions. I am fully aware that there are people out there that for whatever reasons fear transsexuals and therefore I do cautiously conduct my life.

I am only a child when it comes to knowing what is in the bible. I cannot argue theology with you, but there are verses I’m sure you are aware of that also fit my situation. Such as: Galatians 3:27-28, “As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” Probably the most important verse is Romans 2:1, “Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.”

Let me turn the verse you quoted to me several times around on you. Romans 14:21, “It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.” I’m sorry but my understanding of this verse is it is about Christian conduct and the apostle was saying Christians should be careful not to take Christian liberty when, because of weakness; other Christians are not persuaded that such a liberty is divinely allowed. Nowhere in the bible are transsexuals discussed, therefore can it not be said you have taken liberty? Probably the closest thing to transsexuals mentioned are various verses in regards to eunuchs and they were spoken of in a positive matter. In one of Cam’s sermons he said if it is not specifically in the bible we need to use our best judgment. I realize it works both ways and again all I ask is to be allowed to prove I’m a good person, not that evil stereotype you fear.

Did you know that prior to coming out about being transsexual I never attended church for fear of religious persecution? Did you know that when I told my wife, our marriage nearly ended because of her spiritual beliefs? Did you know she rejected all the information I gave her to help her understand? Did you know by a miracle from God, in my view, two stories about transsexuals made national news just at the time our marriage was unraveling? Did you know because of those stories, Jollie on her own began to research and understand what transsexuals were really about and 3 months after I first told her we began rebuilding our marriage? Did you know because of my coming out about being transsexual I started to attend church? Did you know we became members of SCC because we believed we would be welcome? Did you know I believed you when you said SCC wants to lead everyone to a life changing connection with Jesus Christ? Please don’t close the door on me.

I have never expected everyone to support what is going on with me. But I would hope my church would say they do support my spiritual growth. That is why Jollie and I came to SCC in the first place and that is the only answer anyone needs to hear. Instead of you praying that I’m healed of my condition, and me praying for you that you have the right answer when God asks you about your treatment of me, let’s pray together that we are following God’s will.

There is plenty of information out there about transsexuals. I do not believe it would serve any purpose if I provided you sources. I have found that any information I may provide is considered “what I want you to see.” I have come to your church to learn more about Jesus Christ and I don’t believe it is an accident I’m there. I can only ask that you honestly take the time to learn about me.

I’m not sure what our future is at SCC. We will not race to a decision and you don’t have to worry about me creating a scene. I do hope you will take some time to learn about what I am going through and make decisions based on honest facts rather than baseless fears. My biggest fear is SCC will just see me as one lost soul that it would be easier to deal with if I just went away rather than spend the time to understand. Please give me a chance.

Sincerely,

Marsha

Lucy,
He did not directly respond to the letter and it was about 10 days before he responded with a link to a Focus On the Family piece. Focus on the Family could be considered the far right Christian coalition.

Here is the nonsense link he replied with: http://www.citizenlink.or[...]paign=1

Definitely a very opinionated piece. Mentioned further down in that piece is the "National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality " They are listed as for further study. This group is actually an organization out to convert homosexuals to being straight.

Hugs,
Marsha

I may as will go ahead and post the back and forth correspondence that followed. Note how the pastor consistently used my male name in all correspondence. Here is my response to the Focus on the Family "Research? and his followup.

Dear Brian,

Did you actually read any of the references Dr. Dobson used other than the Bible? The biggest problem of all this is he constantly reverted back to talking about homosexuality. Transgender is a huge spectrum and yes it does include some homosexual drag queens and kings, but beyond that the sexual orientation of transgender individuals matches the general population. Dr. Dobson and apparently you are so locked into the sex thing. Why does everything have to be about sex? I honestly would like an answer to that.

When I first read this story I thought I would just go down the list of references he chose to use. The problem was his only supporting references were Genesis 2:23-24; Matthew 19: 3 – 6; Mark 10: 6-9; Ephesians 5:28-32 and how they referred to male and female. Maybe he didn’t read the references he used either because the first one talked about doctors dealing with ambiguous genders of newly born. Maybe these babies that were not distinctly male or female should have been aborted since they didn’t fall under either and that would foul up Mr. Dobson’s vision of divine order. With the fact there are human beings born with variations of chromosomes, how can you say there can only be male and female? Along the same line is let’s say there is only male and female. Is it Dr. Dobson or maybe you that gets to determine the child’s gender, who will it be? I’ve only said that to point out the total silliness in believing male and female is as cut and dry as you and Dr. Dobson are trying to make it.

Next is Dr. Dobson finds a gay activist to quote. Throughout this story he is infatuated with homosexuals instead of sticking to transgender. While quoting this gay activist Dr. Dobson is basically implying “Can you believe what these people think?” Never giving the least bit of credibility to anything they might have to say.

Dr. Dobson seemed to think it was important to list several examples in his story and listed them with references 3 through 12. My question to you is, And? Once again these were pro transgender but instead of giving them any credibility, Dr. Dobson again implies “Can you believe what these people think?”

Moving on, Dr. Dobson attempts to explain the link of the transgender community to the Gay Lesbian Bi communities in his typical way of trying to keep this a homosexual thing. Some simple research will show that Transgender community had always been separate from the GLB but joined because of the legal expertise in discrimination issues the GLB community had. As a general rule, the homosexual community does not actively support the transgender community and that was will documented in HR3685 and HR2015, the Employment Non Discrimination Act bills in 2007. Have you read those? Because of the non support of the gay community, many in the transgender community want our association severed. Did you know that? This is not a sex thing, we are not homosexual.

The remainder of the story was a baseless opinionated rant that he did not use any references for. Then he adds additional resources, have you checked them out? Let’s start with National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality. An organization devoted to helping homosexuals go straight. Nice name, sounds like it is all about research but instead their focus is on making gay people straight. By the way, what does that have to do with transgender, we are not homosexuals.

Next is the TransGender International Fellowship. Apparently a church organization out to save the world from transgender individuals and doesn’t list a single reference on their site. Doesn’t list who created it or who supports it.

Then we have Reality Resources which of all things sells its resources.

Help 4 Families at least gives what appears to be an honest story but it is only one. It is also a good resource for family members to use along with others in helping them understand more about transgender.

Obviously I’m sure you get the impression I don’t think much about the research you provided. First off, it is preaching to the choir, it is what you wanted to hear. I have always believed in many of Dr. Dobson’s family value principles, but that piece was pure opinion. I am not an Obama fan but something ironic was said by Dr. Dobson after the election. I heard this on the radio so I don’t have the quote exact but Dr. Dobson asked what have we done wrong to have this outcome. After reading the research you provided, I think he should read some of the words of hate he puts out, that might explain a lot. He is so focused on preaching about the evils of homosexuality and abortion that he has lost focus on, as Cam put it, what is in the Bible.

You can throw “male and female” at me all day long, but I will throw factual evidence of intersex and chromosomes’ back at you. I have asked for understanding of what a transsexual really is, not anti homosexual rhetoric. I am not homosexual.

What is it you fear? I always thought it was me that was supposed to be afraid, but now I realize I was so wrong. You fear what you don’t understand and you reinforce that fear with more words from those that think exactly like you. The fact is I, like all transsexuals, would not wish this God forsaken circumstance on anyone. We are not out to molest you, your wife or your kids. We are not out to recruit you or your kids into being transgender. All I want is to be able to live my life and have a better relationship with Jesus Christ. I’ve overcome my fears; I can only pray that people like you someday will overcome yours. This crazy story you gave me to read makes it sound like we want everyone to think they too can be a transsexual if they want and it is all ok. The fact is, it is a birth defect I am forced to live with and I will always do everything I can to be a good person. All I want to do is come to church and learn more about Jesus Christ. Please stop spreading fear.

With my limited knowledge of what is in the Bible, I can only wonder what Jesus would make of this situation. All I want is to hear his word, and a church that professes to help spread his word is more focused on telling me I’m not good enough to hear it. Unreal.

Sincerely,

Marsha

and his response:

Mark,

I was simply sharing the other side of the research. You want me and the elders to research, but you don’t want to even consider that the problem may not be your body but your mind. You and I agreed that we live in a fallen world…would you not simply consider that the fallenness may be in the mind, not the chromosomes? You say that “all you want to hear is His (Jesus’) word.” His word says that God created us male and female. You were born male. You even related to me in our first meeting that some traumatic experiences in your life could have helped push your mind in this direction. There is help and hope for a “renewing of the mind.” (Romans 12:1-2).

You also asked “what would Jesus make of this situation?” That is question that I have asked myself at least a hundred times as I have lifted you and Jollie up in prayer!! And, as I have stated many times to you, I firmly believe he would say this to me: Love him…love him…love him…but also, if you really want to love him, tell him the truth from the Bible. Mark…that’s what me and Cam and our elders want you and Jollie to know. We love you…we love you…we love you…but you need to at least consider that the truth can’t come from the secular world if it contradicts clear teaching from the Bible.

Finally…you used a phrase “I’m not good enough to hear it (Jesus’ word).” I’ve never told you that…neither has our church. Your defensiveness and pain is causing you to make that extreme leap in assumption. But, I would say this…maybe you’re not open enough to hear it at this time. I pray that God will give us all the grace to navigate these hard, stressful, and complex issues! Oh and by the way…did you hear me say I love you and I’m praying for you? It’s true…

In Christ's Love,

Brian
Regional Campus Pastor

In our final correspondence before what was to be our final meeting I saw a ray of hope but it turned out to be fleeting.

Brian,
I am sorry about the tone of yesterday's response and sincerely want to apologize for that. On the positive side of all this is I am seeing more of God's word. I do believe too much focus is on the homosexual link. Only a rare theory from a psychologist here and there suggests transsexualism might have something to do with denial of homosexualality. Beyond that it only comes from churches and just like you and Cam stated when I first made all this known, there is little if any understanding in the church regarding this. I do appreciate your willingness to try and understand this and obviously it is not as simple as we would like to think.

Both Jollie and I are confused about the church's message on homosexuality. As the two of us heard it, Cam talked about how the homosexuals themselves are not bad, it was only the sexual act that the Bible speaks of. Therefore if the homosexuals refrained from sex, they were following God's word. Can you please clarify that. You have expressed concern that if people see me as a woman, that would then create the appearance that Jollie and I are homosexuals. We are no longer intimate or having a sexual relationship, so shouldn't this be acceptable if we were considered homosexual. We just feel you are sending a very mixed message on the subject.

Once again I would like to turn the verse you used around on you, Romans 12:1-2. This verse talks about how we need to turn our bodies over to God. You chose to use the words "renewing of the mind" but what about what came before that, "Do not be conformed to this world, but be continually transformed". Because of my being transsexual, I have come to open my heart to God and I believe this is what this verse is asking. I don't believe it is asking me to conform to what Brian believes or anyone else for that matter. I believe it is telling me to open my heart to God so that he alone can determine his will with me. The renewing of the mind implies leaving sinful behavior behind and replacing it with God's word. Again I believe this is where we differ. I feel you believe being transsexual is sinful because you see it as homosexual behavior. Again I say I'm not homosexual, but even if I was, I am following what Cam stated to be ok, I am not engaging in sex.

It may be a slow way, but you might get me through the entire Bible yet. I would like to leave you with a verse.
1 Sam. 16:7, But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

And once again, I do apologize for the tone in yesterday's letter.

Sincerely,
Marsha

And his response:

Mark,

Thanks for your humility and honest seeking of the Scriptures. We will talk about all of this more in person in the near future...but, let me say that, in communicating with one of our elders it has come to my attention that maybe we are off course a little bit in our conversations. To take us back to the bottom line...here it is: We love you and want to minister to your family...you are showing wisdom and maturity in many areas...yet, the answer to the question of attending women's events is still no. This in no way inhibits your participation in worship services and small groups. But, you must be willing as part of the body to respect the decision that under the circumstances has been determined by the elders to be "best for the body."

Still Praying...Still caring for you and Jollie...Still here!

In Christ's Love,

Brian

Then the call came. It was for a meeting including my wife and I with a Savannah Christian Church elder, the pastor and our small group leader. My wife said they are going to rebuke you. Actually by this point I was ready for it to come to an end. I had been fighting the fight for the next Marsha that comes along, hoping someday all girls like us who want to attend church will be welcomed with open arms.

I posted a short little blurb in a transgender Christian forum that I expected to be told we were no longer welcome. That was on a Friday night. Saturday morning I woke up to email from a number of gals who followed that forum. Each offering me support and resources. Each was helpful but one stood out, a TS medical doctor who has also been in ministry for 40+ years. She offered me an abundance of resources plus gave me permission to use a letter she had written for another gal in a similar situation about a year earlier. Those who know me know I cry easily, and with this unbelievable support I had a good cry. I emailed the doctor the letter I started this thread out with so she would have a little better idea of what I was up against. Later that evening I went back to read her email when another email came in from her. This was another letter only this one was a 4 page letter she wrote specifically for me, on a Saturday to boot. Talk about being emotional, it was so overwhelming to have someone who never heard of me before this event go to all this trouble for me. She had said early on it is unlikely at this point anything would dissuade them, however like my efforts, this was for the next Marsha that comes along. I emailed and mailed a hard copy to those who would be in the coming meeting. I did not want any chance it would be overlooked..

My wife did not want to go to the meeting but I said I needed to hear what they had to say. We already knew we would be leaving the church. The meeting was on a Wednesday night which happens to be a church night so it was interesting to see the pastor waiting at the door for us. We were basically hurried up to the offices and brought to a conference room where the other church members were waiting. As my wife and Marsha walked in, the look on the elders face told the story, I was not what he was expecting. I can only guess he was expecting either a drag queen or a guy that was a weekend crossdresser. After introductions the elder stated they had an outline to keep the meeting on track.

The first thing said was they felt the Bible does cover our situation basically tossing out bits and pieces of bible versus. It was obvious they did not want to hear what we had to say although we disputed everything and questioned their treatment of us. One after another we pointed out their hypocrisy but they never responded except to say lets move on. This is when he told me I needed to repent and reverse my physical changes. I think he added the reverse the physical changes after seeing that I had significant changes. He went on to say I needed to stop wearing makeup, earrings and women's clothing. All I could do is start laughing and I told him I would not come to church crossdressed as a guy. I don't think he knew what to make of that. About then my wife stood up crying and said it was time for us to leave. They all pleaded for us not to go. I took that as my cue to stand up and I basically told them that they can pray all they want for me to be cured or see God's way, but I will be praying for them that when they are up on the stand and God asks them why I was treated the way I was, that they have the right answer. With that and their pleas for us to stay continuing, my wife and I headed for the conference room door and strolled leisurely out without ever looking back over our shoulders.

We now have a new church that is all inclusive and has welcomed my wife and me with open arms. We couldn't be happier.

I know this has been a lot of stuff to read. I hope it gives strength to others out there letting you know you do not have to bow to anyone. We are good people. I truly believe Jesus would love and welcome us.

One more thing, I can't end this without saying who it is that helped me. Her name is Dr. Jennifer Burnett. She has an outstanding website https://drjenspage.com/ that all Christians need to learn from. We have some incredible people in our community. There is no reason for anyone to feel alone.

Hugs,
Marsha

Lastly, what is my motivation behind posting all this? Simply put, I believe most of the people who make up a churches congregation are truly good people. I think they usually go to church with good intentions and often don't know or maybe don't even care about what the church's politics are. Lastly, they don't know what goes on behind the scenes and that is why I posted this. The ignorance and hypocrisy were clearly rampant in the way my situation was handled..

Question everything, and don't feel ashamed for doing it.

Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha..

This is an incredible recap of what we all must face in the process of going forward. It should be a MUST READ for all...mega hugs for you and Jollie standing up and holding your ground in the face of such people. And they call themselves Christian? Geeez....

Truly was touched by your posts!

Thanks for sharing...

Traci xxxxxxx

Marsha
You just can't change stones; you can't reason with them - and unfortunately you were dealing with stones.
You know God loves you and that's what counts.
hugs
Gracie

Thank you Traci and Mary. Battling Savannah Christian Church wasn't really about me. I was battling them for the next Marsha that will eventually come along. This was a challenge I felt I had to battle even though the outcome was pretty much a given when I started. I have often been criticized for my bluntness, however, I feel it is gals like me that confront these ignorant and close minded individuals, that will pave the way for gals down the road. I am not a political activist which should be obvious in my posts, but I am nonetheless a strong activist within our community emphasizing education as the key to our eventual acceptance.
Hugs,

Marsha,hang on in there and keep the faith.It saddens me as a liberal/left christian that so many of our brothers and sisters are so bigotted,rather like a Christian Taliban and living in an aea with a large Muslim population I know how steryotyped are our attitudes to such generally good-natured and kindly people.
I,m not going to come out with any Brit sneer about American reactionaries as the intellectual mentors of the Anglican outfit I belong to are both splendid types;Rob Bell 'The velvet Elvis'and Brian McLaren 'A gentle Orthodoxy?' ,the latter I have met and they have both helped me maintain my rather feeble faith.
Your Savannah church sounds more like an exclusive Country Club than a refuge for the broken and lost which I take to be the Carpenter's flock-hugs and stuff,Nina P.XX

Thank you Nina and Cris. We now attend a United Methodist church which is all inclusive. We have made some wonderful new friends at this church. Nina you pegged it, the old church did have that country club membership atmosphere. This new one is filled with people you would love have living next door to you.

Cris, what I found was it didn't matter how clear and factual your supporting evidence was, they refused to acknowledge it. The only way they will eventually change is as more are educated in the reality of our circumstances, or as some may eventually have gay or transgender family members, only when members voice their questions on church policy will things change. As it stands right now, most church goers attend for the social status versus spiritual reasons so they just keep their mouths shut and go home when it is over. I feel the numbers are dwindling in those who actually believe the hate messages the churches put out.

Hugs,

Hiya Marsha,

Im so glad its working out for you now.

Unfortunately, the bigots dont need facts or statistics to support their opinions and inherantly is the difficulty when trying to explain the whys and wherefores to the errors in their judgement. i supose its something we need to accept and move on.

At my local pub, everyone has known me for over 15 years, hence the reason why going stealth is a bit pointless for me when i went full time. anyhow, as usual and as expected there are a couple of people who refuse to respect my liberty. I tried to explain the principles that a free and equal society can only be truely free if everyone respects everyone elses liberty and as expected i found myself doing impressions of a baboon just to keep the conversation flowing. They couldnt even comprehend the concept that they should respect people's freedoms to live as they choose regardless of how much they disagreed with the way they live their lives.

I came to the conclusion that they were too stupid to realise how stupid they are. I decided to stop wasting my energy and if they ever wished to strike up a conversation in the future I will perplex them with a few 3 sylabal words and reveal their true intelectual prowess.

much love
penny
xxx

Thanks for the nice post Penny. It kind of really comes down to what you said, these people just don't realize how stupid they sound when they won't acknowledge something that is black and white right in front of them. The prime example I kept telling this church is they gave a big sermon on Oct. 28, 2007, made a big deal of it, said they might even lose members because of it, but the church was opening its door to homosexuals. It is truly amazing when you confront them with that, they literally don't respond, as if they never heard a word out of your mouth. In this case they don't even try and argue the point. It sounds like your guys at the pub are maybe just stubborn and want to stand by their belief that what we are doing is wrong. All you can do is shake your head and do what I believe I am doing. I tell everyone I can about what happened there. My wife still has one of their decals on her van with a big red "do not" symbol over the top of it. She gets lots of questions about the decal and believe me, she tells them all about it.
hugs,

Thats exactly it Marsha! The bone heads dont seem to be aware that they are the smallest of minorities and 99.99% of everyone else sees them as... well, bone heads! lol

an example, at sparkle, there was a wedding reception at the hotel where we stayed for the weekend and the fire alarm went off and everyone bailed outside to the hotel entrance. in the large crowd that gathered on the pavement one of the wedding reception guys took it upon himself to disrespect the transwomen in the crowd and when his fellows, there were about 9, told him to "cut it out" he seemed dismayed and asked "why are you taking their side, you should be on my side." The whole crowd looked at him thinking "what a twonk." He breifly had a look of confusion while he was trying to fathom why he was the only one but then got distracted with the idea of pursuing his hate crime and criminal activities. if only the spent a little longer thinking about why he was the only one.

Thats as much as I can recall because I got distracted when the fire engine turned up. yes, my knickers burst into flames and the fireman had to... oh, thats another story!

LOL Penny. I wish I was there to see that....err, the idiot making a fool of himself that is. I don't think I really would want to watch the firemen trying to cool you down.
Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha,

I am so proud of you sticking to your guns! I don't need to reiterate what the others have said, but to get to the point, "You Did Us Proud!"

We both know that you and I have had or own differences of opinions over the years, but I have the utmost respect for you standing up to those hypocrites.

You an Jollie shall be always welcome in my humble, yet atheist home, should you ever come to the San Francisco Bay Area.

Humbly yours,
Nicole

Thank you for such a nice reply to my post Nicole. So often a forum only gives you a tiny glimpse of who a person really is and we end up filling in the blanks with our imagination. I know my opinions often go against the grain, at least the grain of what others openly express. Beyond that I am a real person, with a real life, and I am trying to do my best to take care of my family. I think I mentioned it above that maybe it just takes an opinionated person to stand up and fight these battles that do need to be fought. Mark was a very shy, non confrontational person, but Marsha has become very comfortable and confident with who she is. For me it is a breath of fresh air.

And thank you for the welcome. I do not believe in pushing my spiritual beliefs on anyone. It is not my right to judge.

Hugs,
Marsha

While I attended Savannah Christian Church a guy that sat with his son in the row in front of us was arrested for child molestation. A few days ago he was sentenced to 10 years in prison. This is my comment I posted at the newspapers website on the story about the sentencing:

It is sad and unfortunate this ever happened in the first place. Fortunately Mr. Carleton was stopped and will now pay a price for his actions. The kids involved will have to live with this the rest of their lives and we need to all hope they come through this with minimal pain in their lives. Mr. Carleton's actions went on over many years, so why did it take so long to stop him. First off who are child molesters? Based on the 1999 Abel and Harlow Child Molestation Prevention Study, 93% of the child molesters were religious and 77% were married. Mr. Carleton was a member of a large church in Savannah and typically sat with his son in the row in front of my wife and I. You would have never known, we didn't until the story broke in the newspaper. But that is not the entire story. You see, I happen to be transgender, I have a wife and family who I love dearly. Yet it wasn't the church looking at the men of the congregation as potential child molesters, it was me that was being associated based on baseless perverted homophobic stereotyping. Eventually I was told I as a transsexual was not welcome. My wife and I were also told by the pastor another church member would soon be released from prison after serving a sentence for child molestation. My point is some people are so wrapped up hating those that are different, they fail to see the real deviants in our society. It is typical for people to believe there is no possible way this person could be guilty of such a heinous crime, Mr. Carleton, just as so many others, again proved the ignorant wrong.

I had some good news today, at least in a way it is good news. My wife informed me after talking with a co-worker that Brian the pastor I dealt with at Savannah Christian Church, as of August 9th is no longer a pastor at this mega church. The reason stated was an opportunity in Missouri came up that he could not pass. Of course I would like to think his leaving had something to do with how my situation was handled, but who knows. I have no intentions of going back to Savannah Christian Church and will openly speak out against them until I receive a formal apology for how I was treated. At least I don't have to worry about him spewing anymore hatred in my town.
Hugs,
Marsha

Actually, in a story from the Tora that was left out of the Bible, Eve wasn't the first woman. The first woman was named Lillith and was made from the same dirt as Adam. She chose to leave the Garden rather than spend her life less than equal to Adam. It was when she wouldn't return that God created Eve from Adam's rib.

I believe this story was kept out of the Bible because it showed a strong willed woman.

What they really didn't tell us was that the poor lass Tora (mind you, this was before GPS's had become fashionable) had neglected to carry Adam's well written directions on how to return home. Needless to say, Tora became lost, never to return to her garden again. Adam, being the man he his, began to shack up with Eve. Now you know the rest of the story! (smile)

Traci

ìéìéú : Lillith, is actually not mentioned in the Torah as the first woman. Lillith is mentioned in Isaiah 34 v14 . The verse refers to an owl. The Midrash is the first time Lillith is mentioned.as Adam's first wife.

Marsha,
I’m so very glad that you have found a more tolerant and understanding group to belong to.
It’s always seemed to me that the problem with some learned people is that the more they learn, the more they think they know, and much less that they truly understand.

Penny Wenny
Your quote, “too stupid to realise how stupid they are” made me laugh out loud, and I’m going to have to use that I’m afraid.

Did you get a reply to this letter, Marsha?
xx

I don't care what your motivations on posting were, Marsha. I just thankyou for doing so. That was a beautiful, well thought out, well reasoned argument. It saddens me a little that you never got the response you merited.

I'm sure the relationship you're seeking with Jesus Christ is far stronger now - and despite your [previous?] church - then ever before. As is, obviously, that with your family. I have no doubt Someone up there has smiled not only on you but on those you love and who love you.

God Bless.

Rae xx

"God created us male and female."

Well, I sure know that I am....male AND female, that is.

God also gave us the ability to think, learn and understand the world we were given. It is understandable that Theodoric of York, Medieval Theologist, devoid of the desire or training to observe the world around and SEE it, might draw the "obvious" conclusion that God created us male OR female. But, it does not say that, does it?

Now anti-evolutionary thinking obviates scientific observation and discovery relating to our world. Once one accepts evolutionary theory, however, there are facts that impinge on biblical interpretation. If one accepts that male-female gender is a spectrum, not an either or, then indeed, the Goddess did create us Male AND Female...in each person to a greater or lesser degree but certainly as a species we show elements of both gender behaviors and shared gender behaviors. These come from environment, but also from the body/brain complex as hardwired behaviors. In short, God gave us the ability to understand Her Word. Some fear the responsibility of making their own decisions and integrating new ideas that make them, God forbid, think for themselves using the greatest gift he bestowed upon us. Furthermore, if God made us in Her own image, then He is both genders as well...I suspect in Perfect Balance.

The fact is, evolution and human development are an amazingly beautiful and complex process. Once there was only one gender/sex. Now there are two in many, many species. The process that makes female XY fetuses into male babies is a wondrous act of creation. The second great gift that God gave us, in addition to our intelligence, is an imperfect world, for without it our lives would be truly boring...something like the Classical image of Heaven which, some of us, perceive as a potential Hell. (Rod Serling addressed this decades ago on an episode of The Twilight Zone where a criminal finds his "perfect" Heaven is, in fact, Hell). No, The Goddess gave us a world that would always be new and interesting so that we could use our gift of intelligence. As some have found out in pubs and on the street, She also gave us humans who are happy screwing in the dome lights on the assembly line at General Motors. Imperfection makes our world a better place.

God created us male AND female.

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If we are to believe that all Transgendered people are perverts and child molesters.....are we to believe the same of all Ministers and Priests. I can't remember the last news story about a transgendered child molester, yet I am sure there are some....some, not all. Perhaps SCC should address THAT question. Is it inherent in the desire and belief system needed by those who choose The Cloth, that one be a molester as well? If not, then why would it be true of transgendered persons? Certainly not likely in MtF's since it is far less common in genetic women.

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Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity....or ignorance. Remember, a perfectly logical arguement, with only one False premise, can be False. Don't expect a turkey to be able to fly. And never, never cloud the issue with true facts.

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Marsha, a wonderful thread. Thank you for starting it. Faith is important to many in our community and they need input from people like you to allow them to keep that Faith as part of their lives. I hope that they will remember that Christianity teaches that we each have a PERSONAL relationship with Christ and that "The Temples" can misinterpret, manipulate and twist his teachings for their own purposes. Good work on both the thread and your efforts to reform the SCC. Blessed Be.

Actually the Bible says Adam was created first and Eve was only an afterthought when God noticed Adam was lonely...but then on the other hand as all animal babies start out female maybe Eve had been pencilled in on the original blueprints for Adam...I prefer to think that cats and dogs but especially cats were created after Adam and before Eve...

Marsha,

"The Lord moves in mysterious ways.:"

Torah is the first five books of The Bible, also referred to as the Pentateuch.

Well, I prefer to stick with Sdam and Eve as it fits with what we know of biology...Lilith only came on the scene when Cheers was being written...