I don't suppose this will be of interest to many, as Christians are a species in decline. But as one of the few remaining – I'm an active churchgoer – I was wondering whether others found it easy to reconcile being a Christian with being a crossdresser.

You see, the general Christian position is that male is male and female is female, and there's nothing inbetween. Although I'm biologically male, I'm psychologically closer to female, and I dress often, though usually in secret.

Many people I know within the Christian churches would adopt a judgemental attitude to this. Some would rise above it and respond with an attitude of love and acceptance. But there's no doubt that the church is hindered by its history and culture.

As for me, I'm trying to keep both going. I don't understand where trannies fit into the big picture, but I hope I will one day.

Catherine

Hmmm....

I belong to the lutheran church and they send me happily mail under my present name Laura Virve Natalia. I see no problems between myself and the christian faith. God created me transsexual. I don´t know what he thought about when doing so. Some people he blesses with cancer. But we cure cancer and the wrong gender...under his blessing angels. I hope .

Laura

I have to say, I'm not Christian, but I have Unitarian family (my aunt is a lay minister). I won't say what path I follow, because it might be provocative to some, but it should be enough to say that I know exactly what you gals mean.

The thing is, the people that just dogmatically follow ingrained beliefs that they've been instructed on and influenced by all their lives are not true Christians. They are after all only following rules, and have no real beliefs or idea's of their own. These people tend to be so closed minded that in my opinion they really are'nt worth bothering with.

The true christians, and the ones I respect, are people like yourselves, with a true Christian spirituality, philosophy, and outlook on life.

All I can say is that there's no need to worry. Even if a church does reject you, there's always another church, and anyway, even without a church, would it matter? I mean, God is everywher is he not? To be honest, I don't think God would acctually like the churcgh today. It seems to be made of Mans image more than it's the house of God (in general. I make no comment on your churches, not knowing what/where they are).

Really, all I can say is that if you stay true to yourselves, and true to your religion/spirituality, you're doing exactly what many supposed Christians are'nt. You're acctually acting Christian and not just pretending. That in itself is something to be proud of.

Oh yes...

I have my own picture of the world as well. I believe that there is God, but I believe in reincarnation as well. And that as mental creations we are genderless. So, there is no such thing as a female or male soul. Our gender is connected to our astral body, again connected to out earthly body.

Laura

Hi Cathy
The way i look at it is, you are a christian and you dress,
your faith or most of it think anything not in the bible is a sin. You go to church, you pray, you sing, if they condem you for being the person you want to be ,are they then not being how the romans were to jesus?
I am not a religous person, but i prayed to god for help when i went to war, so do you really need the church to show your faith to the lord. This is not taking the micky out of people's faith as i know of the christian biker patch around my area, they wear the leathers and have big bike's, but they are doing something they enjoy and they are also still loving of god.
love JJ xx

Hi Catherine,

I don't have any deep religious faith in the sense of attending church on a regular basis but I am steeped in the morals and taboos of Christianity and, particularly, Methodism.

The texts that seem to condemn cross dressing are mainly taken from the Old Testament and, rightly or wrongly, I have the view that many of these 'rules' where set in times when they perhaps had more relevance in preserving the fabric of the society. Cross dressing seems to be associated with weak morals and a general breakdown in society and civilised behaviour. Even current films use transvestite images as a metaphor for debauchery and the seedier side of life.

But cross dressing of itself cannot be morally wrong and I think it is incumbent on transgenders to set the record straight when they can. I have taken my moral code from the teachings of Christ himself - who was much more about loving others, not judging others, compassion and forgiveness.

I think the world is changing and while most congregations would still see cross dressing as a bit bizarre, I doubt they would still see it as 'sinful'.

love Fiona

Hi Cathy

I too am a 'practicing' Christian and too have had some problems in coming to terms with what the perception of crossdressing is in Christianity. It has taken some time but for what it is worth here is my two pennyworth.

When you think about it and look at the life of Christ He did some amazing things but the one thing He did was to try and get us to love each other - not in the sexual sense but as people. When we look at the people He associated with and took under His wing they were not the 'best' people in society. Mary magdelene was a lady if ill repute - probably a prostitute. He talked to the 'common' people and argued with the 'establishment'. Who can say who He would associate with today. His message was everyone needs to be tolerant of the views of others. If more had people followed this Christian ethic then we would have had less wars and bloodshed over the last 2000 odd years.

I try and be tolerant of others. I don't always manage it but I do try and that is my way of being a Christian. I try to live up to the ideals Christ set out but fail miserably most of the time.

One has to be very careful when listening to "The Word of God". It is interpreted by man (fallible). If you read the origional manuscripts in their origional languages you will find that much meaning has been changed by the language switch and the translator's personal issues. Often "The Bible" did not say what it does now and meanings are drastically altered.

Who is to say what The Creator meant or wants? Pathetic, inadequate humans who cannot possibly understand such a force any more than a paramecium in a puddle understands a human sloshing through his universe. What arrogance!

I believe there are four possibilities:

1. God doesn't care a rat's fart about any of us. We are unimportant to Him.
2. God is a malignant thug and the oppressive, fundamentalist assholes are right. You are f***** anyway. He knows what's in your heart and u are going straight to Hell.
3. God is benevolent and if you live a good life, in a manner that you believe to be right *yourself*, you will be accepted by Him as having done so.
4. There is no God. When you die, it is over.

All things considered, you might as well live THIS life the way you want to according to your *individual* Faith.

Always remember that religion is a matter of Faith. Who is to say that YOU are not right and Jerry Falwell is speck of fly dung on the wall of the universe?

Live, Love and Be Happy. Evolution adores variety.

First a confession (appropriate or what?). I dislike organised religion. If I were to list the pros and cons of them, I'd only need one half of the paper. But....

Whatever your church may think, you are not defined by your gender. It is possible to like boxing and women's clothes. It is possible to be a biker and have a sex change. It's possible to be TG and carry a bellyful of hate or love for everyone. Therefore, your religion and your gender are mutually exclusive.

If your church can't accept that, maybe your church isn't all it purports to be. Unless your church has a big sign outside reading: "JESUS LOVES YOU - so long as you dress in the clothes designed for your birth gender and never so much as think of deviating from them."

Is there anything in Genesis about Adam wearing a dinner jacket and Eve whipping up a nice leaf green two piece?

Good question, Catherine.


I got the idea for this list from another website, but I tweaked it a little. I might've even posted it elsewhere on this board, but I can't find it. At least I saved it on my PC. Anyway, for the sake of discussion, here are some verses from the Revised Standard Version of the Holy Bible. How do we interpret them?


Old Testament:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
(Genesis 1:27)

You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.
(Leviticus 19:27)

You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh on account of the dead or tattoo any marks upon you: I am the Lord.
(Leviticus 19:28)

A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a women's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.
(Deuteronomy 22:5)

He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the Lord.
(Deuteronomy 23:1)

And you, O desolate one, what do you mean that you dress in scarlet, that you deck yourself with ornaments of gold, that you enlarge your eyes with paint? In vain you beautify yourself. Your lovers despise you, they seek your life.
(Jeremiah 4:30)



New Testament:

Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head -- it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn, let her wear a veil. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels. (Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.) Judge for yourselves; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not nature itself teach you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her pride? For her hair is given to her for a covering. If any one is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God.
(1 Corinthians 11:4-16)

For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church. What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. If any one does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
(1 Corinthians 14:33-38)

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion.
(1 Timothy 2:8-10)

Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
(1 Timothy 2:11-12)



Depending on the translations used and the interpretation of the translated text, here's a summary of possible taboos that might be inferred from the above verses:

Males...
May not shave their heads. (Leviticus 19:27)
May not have piercings. (Leviticus 19:28)
May not have tattoos. (Leviticus 19:28)
May not wear women's clothes. (Deuteronomy 22:5)
May not enter female occupations, especially not as homemakers. (Deuteronomy 22:5)
May not avoid military service. (Deuteronomy 22:5)
May not be castrated or have a sex change. (Deuteronomy 23:1)
May not wear makeup or jewelry. (Jeremiah 4:30)
May not have long hair. (1 Corinthians 11:4-16)
May not trim their beards. (Leviticus 19:27)
May not pray with their heads covered. (1 Corinthians 11:4-16)


Females...
May not have piercings. (Leviticus 19:28)
May not have tattoos. (Leviticus 19:28)
May not wear men's garments. (Deuteronomy 22:5)
May not bear arms. (Deuteronomy 22:5)
May not enter male occupations, including military service. (Deuteronomy 22:5)
May not wear makeup or jewelry. (Jeremiah 4:30)
May not shave their heads. (1 Corinthians 11:4-16)
May not have short hair. (1 Corinthians 11:4-16)
May not braid their hair. (1 Timothy 2:9)
May not wear costly attire. (1 Timothy 2:9)
May not pray with their heads uncovered. (1 Corinthians 11:4-16)
Should remain silent in church. (1 Corinthians 11:33b-38)
May not have authority over men. (1 Timothy 2:11-12)



The question is, how do we interpret these verses? Can they be taken out of context? Does leaving them in their original contexts change anything? Many individuals have the tendency to take specific quotes from religious, philosophical, or political works and use them to support or even prove various viewpoints, some even contradicting each other. When we look at the verses above and the possible extrapolations/interpretations that follow, how do we react, and how should we respond?

Of course, each one of us has our own beliefs, and the text of the Talmud, Bible, Koran, etc. might hold different meanings and varying degrees of relevance in our lives, but I think it's important to study what some of the major religious texts have to say about us, because those texts shape the thoughts and attitudes of the societies/cultures in which we live.

Your question is not easy to answer. I am also not only church goer, but some how preacher. I love God over all. I love my wife a lot. I know the Bible. The only mention to CDing is Deuteronomy 22,5. But it was mostly referred to the cult of the phoenicians to a Godess. There are some mentions to homosexuality, and I have consistently remained hetero. However, when you are in female, the temptation is not easy. Saint Augustine wrote "Love and do whatever". This means a lot. I try to love a lot. Not to fall in deadly sin, and live the most possible in peace with my self and all the mankind. Pray a lot, do your best and deliver that to God. Kisses and hugs. Naty.

Stevie--

I think we have had this discussion before--so I won't bore everyone with too many details. Because of my educational background (D.D., DPrM and M.Div) and how I earn my living, I try not to discuss religion much unless asked. However...this is a topic I feel needs to be addressed, and this forum is as good a place as any other.

One thing before I start: If you do not claim the title of Christian, then this is not going to apply to you. I cannot speak for Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc.

There are several things that believers need to keep in mind as we walk through this minefield:

1. There are several types of laws in the Bible. The main two are civil and ceremonial. Civil laws are things similar to the Ten Commandments. These are still in force, and they form the basis for both British Common Law and American Law. (Sorry, folks--hate to say it, but it is a truism.)

2. Ceremonial laws--things like diet, washing at certain times, feasts/festivals, etc. have been fulfilled, as Jesus came to fulfill--and was the fulfillment--of the law. Therefore, these laws do not apply to Christians, or anybody else who is not an Orthodox Jew for that matter.

3. There are three commandments given us by Jesus: "Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind, and love thy neighbor as thyself." The third one is: "Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." These do not change. Jesus wants us to look at the heart, not the garments. What is the attitude?

4. The early church told the Gentile churches "...to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality." Nothing was mentioned here about clothing.

5. Since much of the Levitical laws were ceremonial, they no longer have much import to daily Christian life. This includes things like Deuteronomy 22:5, as Jesus fulfilled that part of the law!

6. However, we are called to lead lives of purity, and to watch out for those weaker than we are in our faith. This may mean toning down how, where, and so forth our rights to dress as the women we are, in order to keep the three commandments given us by Jesus.

7. Finally, we are to work out our own salvation "with fear and trembling." We believe that one day, we will stand before a holy God, and will have to account for how we lived our lives. Does this mean it is okay to live as we do?

Only you can decide this for yourself. I have concluded that it is okay for me to do this; this is how I was created to be. (Something about "fearfully and wonderfully made"....)

I'll get out of the pulpit now.

Luv 'n hugs,

Rev. Mina Sakura

Agreed. Unfortunately, there are persons who take those individual quotes and use them to support whatever prejudices they want to justify. That's why I think it's important for us to have a general idea of the original context. Although I'm Agnostic, I think your statements make plenty of sense.

Hello all,

all I want to add here is something that was said in "Dogma" By Kevin Smith [who is a practicing Catholic btw].

"It is better to have an idea than a belief as its easier to change an idea." I think that this is why we have so many problems with the religious world and the rest of the world. Too many people have taken what was really [ or at least should have been] an idea and turned them into a belief.

I will add I'm agnostic too. So for me what I think is a constantly evolving idea. I happy to hear other ideas and thoughts. I am also quite jelous of those who can believe so overwelmingly in a religion [those who really believe, not the pretenders] as it must be comforting to "know" what is going to happen. So I do understand how it became a belief.

I think Leviticus 19:28 refers to the cutting of ones self in mourning for a dead loved one. This and cutting off of hair was done by some societies, including Native American. Many biblical laws were passed to stamp out other religions and to keep people from following other customs. If you can't eat with someone, you can't marry them. If you look carefully, you will find a passage warning you against women bearing rasin cookies [really!].

I want a t-shirt that says: GOD MADE ME THIS WAY. REFER ALL QUESTIONS AND CRITICISMS TO THE MANUFACTURER.