Just found this on the web. This is the kind of small-minded bigotry we are up against...

http://traditionalvalues.[...]234.PDF

Hugs,

Katie x

Boy Katie,

You are just a "little troublemaker," aren't you?! Finding all this interesting dirt out there.

Thanks for the links.

It is amazing just how many real sickos there are out there that feel themselves perfectly normal and justified in their hate, fear and anger.

I love the groups logo; the capitol dome.

I fear that homoseuality and its panoply of fellow travelling "isms" may just be the target of the next social purge. As I alluded to in another post, it may just be acceptable to target these "weirdos" because of the societally acceptable disdain in which they are held, and because they say that the bible says that what they do is wrong.

Georgie porgie where are your ever so compassionate friends taking this country?

Katie its amazing to see how many groups are campaining on behalf of Transgendered people, do we have the same response in Britain i wonder?? or are we a nation that does it all behind closed doors?........hugz Julie xx

Bias judgments based on ignorance, fear, self interest,or imposed social morals, hmmm - Go Figure !?,, This kind of crap has been around a loooong time, and it ain't goin' away any time soon. I get more tired of people trying to push this type of ideology onto people,because they voted one way or another, in a (basicly) two party system. Lumping people into 'blanket stereotypes' seems to be the most used means of an individual, or group to "justify" their position on any subject!?

Most of the Islamic vote in the US was for Kerry so
If you voted for Kerry, does that make you a Muslim?
Ziggy its the same logic you are using!
Get a grip.. There are closed minds on both sides,
Ignorance is the problem here.


Minds are like parachutes, they don't work if they are not open

This might be the first time everyone in the politics forum agrees on an issue. LOL

I read the PDF file Katie posted, and I also browsed the entire "Traditional Values Coalition" website. I've seen this group before, and others like it, so it's not exactly surprising, but it's certainly sad to know there are still those who consider homosexuals and trannies mentally ill and try to revive that old myth. They speak of anyone who's gay or trans with disgust, and of course they point out that one trans author is Marxist (Leslie Feinberg), and in doing so, they imply that we're all Marxists, or at least Marxist sympathizers. I guarantee that I make most of those TVC people look like socialists. LOL

They don't want people to know that we represent all walks of life and that most of us are regular, everyday people, just like them. Their prejudice is obvious, and I think most people do see them for the bigots they are. The TVC and their ilk want to portray us as extremists and freaks who pose a danger to their values and lifestyles, which is ridiculous. However, we still have to demonstrate otherwise, through our actions and statements. Whenever members of the general population see that we are sane, rational, responsible citizens who are all over the social and political spectrums, they are less likely to marginalize us.

Ziggy, what are you talking about now?

I'm with you on this one gloria hun....ziggy,just give it a rest will you! We are supposed to fight this crap together,and should not be fighting each other.Life is too short,so lets just enjoy it eh?...love maria xxxx

Ziggy, you've misinterpreted my statement. You need to take the chip off your shoulder and lighten up a bit. Like Maria says, we should be together on issues like this.

Ziggy, based on some of your statements, it appears that you think all right-wingers are anti-trans & ant-gay, and all left-wingers are pro-trans & pro-gay, and that isn't the case in American society. As for the political parties themselves, while Democrats do tend to support GLBT rights more often than Republicans, neither party is internally united on those issues. Plus, there are many other issues that determine who we support, and we can't just support a party/candidate on the basis of trans rights and ignore the issues of abortion, gun control, economics, terrorism, etc. So, while many of us are against the TVC and some of the things they stand for, that doesn't automatically mean that we'll be supporting Democrats or Republicans.

well balanced personality... chip on BOTH shoulders..

theres a freind of mine, real liberal type, not told him about this side of me.. cus hes picky about what hes liberal about.

to each there own, if it don't hurt me i can live with it, reckon we all should

Okay gals,

Let's make this real simple...

Both major parties in the US suck big time (and not well)....

BUT..

The Republicans in their platform are openly anti-gay..however you want to try and rationise it out of their platform you have to include the fact that the leader of the Republican party has promoted an ammendment to the Constitution which intended to placate his Christian Right base, the likes of which are very much like the Traditional Values people Katie pointed out in her posting.

So what do you do as part of a group, which would suffer negatively because of that ammendment?

Even more clearly put ... Hypothetically... you are a Jew living in Germany. You are patriotic. You love your country. Your family has lived there for generations. You consider yourself as German as anyone else in Germany. Much of what Hitler is proposing for the country would be beneficial for you as well as the German Christians, but the caveat is that his Nazi pary also supports a limitation on your rights as a jew. He has not yet advocated your extinction, Though he has pointed the way for it in his Mein Kampf writings; but that is an intelelctual treatise and you believe that in the real world what he has writtin could never be put into practice - at least you would like to believe that because, inspite of what many in Europe say about teh Jews, you as a Jew know that they are wrong in their perception. You know you are a good moral person and are not responsible for killing Jesus.

What do you do? Do you vote for Hitler and explain your vote by saying that not all Jews are socialists and communists, and that there is much good to much of what the Nazis are proposing?

I believe that is about as simply as it can be put.

How many of you as Jews would vote for Hitler under the circumstances?


( And please don't tell me that Bush isn't a Hitler, that's not what this is about -(yet)
Joe p

"The Republicans in their platform are openly anti-gay"
What did I miss, the only part when it might be inferred in their platform that they are anti-gay is on the concept of gay marriage.

"..however you want to try and rationise it out of their platform you have to include the fact that the leader of the Republican party has promoted an ammendment to the Constitution which intended to placate his Christian Right base"

Again what we are talking about is the gay marriage issue.

"So what do you do as part of a group, which would suffer negatively because of that ammendment?"
1. Fight against, try to insure that it doesn't pass. Adding an ammendment to the constitution is a very long involve process which takes consideralbe time.
2. Compromise. Like I said in a previous post, the sticky issue here is simply the wording. Most of the world has been brought up learning that marriage is between a man and a woman and that is the accepted norm for 99% of the population. So drop the word
marriage and accept Civil Union or make up a new name..It would be the equivelent to marriage with all the associated rights and duties but just not called marriage. You would be surprized how much better this would go over simply because it is not called a marriage.

BTW Im sick of the Hilter-Bush comparisons in any manner..

Where in the world did I say I can't stomach people who don't like Bush? Im expressing my opion on matters, just as you express yours. Im not trying to convert you to what I believe,
just trying to explain why I see things in another perspective.
I enjoy hearing both side of a point of view, I may not agree with it but I like to get the otherside's perspective too.
If you throw a question into a forum...are you surprised that
you get answers that don't agree your opinon?

Gloria,

It's not just words, although I appreciate that you seem to feel they are appropriate.

As a matter of fact I am working on a t-shirt; that is one of my businesses and I am developing a website, which already contains political content. (I respect Katies position on not promoting other sites and so I won't list it here - it is only partially functional.)

I am also working on another political item with a lesbian friend of mine - a political statement.

Sandi,

I see that you are serious, but you seem to miss the point on the question I raised and the comparison I made.

I regret that you are tired of the Hitler/ Nazi analogy, but sadly those in power have studied two things from what I can see, Machiavelli's "the Prince," and the Nazi's more updated method of obtaining power and manipulating their population. The Nazi's developed the modern example, based on Machiavelli's lessons, - and those in power today in the USA understand both the models very well, and are using them as their primer. You must put the accent of history aside and truly look at what is happening. This is not the America I was born into. I cannot make you see that; but it is there for the seeing. One can only be brought to information, but cannot be forced to digest and understand it, if they truly do not want to.

As far as seeing only the ammendment to the constitution as being anti-gay, well - for one thing, that should be enough, but if it is not, you must understand what that represents. I explained that when I explained in another post that Mr.Bush may just be placating his constituency, but that alone should arouse fear, when you study his constituency.

His constituency is filled with a miriad number of hate groups, many Christian based, or at least waving their Christian crosses for its usefulness.

They are equating their beliefs and morality with American, which leaves no room for dissenters.

Like the analogy or not, that is exactly what happened in Nazi Germany.

That an ammendment process is very long is no comfort to me or to those threatened by its meaning and portent. It took many years for Hitler to rise to power. The current administration is a result of some thirty years of development. They have been at work since the defeat of Goldwater, actually before that, beginning in the Eisenhower administration., which is why he issued his "Militray/Industrial/Complex" warning as he prepared to depart from office. Their goal is power and monitary control. The religous crap is a means to an end, a method of establishing a power base, which is required in a Democracy. Noam Chomsky among others explains this very well. In other forms of government ther si no need for a perveived majority. Here we have been taught that the majority decide, and so those constrlling the Republican Pary have developed a plan for creating a msjority . It is not politics as usual out there.

A few more years is not much for those forces running the world. But if people will not see what is happening, and stop each attempt at its inception, the inevitable will eventually happen. I believe I made that connection about the hypothetical Jew in Germany wanting to support Hitler on most of his programs.

Sorry to say, but you can't cherry pick through attempts at totalitarianism. It just doesn't work like that. I wish I could tell you that the Demeocrats soundly opposed the war and the Patriot Act, but I can't. What I can say is that John Kerry did not pander to hate groups and did not support an ammendment to the Constitution limiting freedoms.

As far as changing the word marriage, why should someone have to do that? I don't know that Christians own the word, or the practice. If the Christians are so offended by someone else's use of the word, let them change it for themselves. You cannot just give up some of your freedom, and some of your citizenship. Again it doesn't work like that. It didn't work for the Jews in Nazi Germany. They too tried to be accomodating, which is what you are suggesting the gays do. As I am sure you are familiar with the German Lutheran minister who said he didn't stand up against the nazis until it was also too late for him.

I am not currently involved with a transsexual, but if i were and felt I wanted to build a life with her, why shouldn't we able to do just that, - around a marriage. Every single person on this site is challenging the status quo. Why don't we just change what we are called. Maybe all the post-ops should agree to be called "post-ops" and not men or women. Maybe gay men should be called Gay Smith instead of Mr. Smith. Marriage is marriage - and I see reason why it should be limited or called something else because of a bunch of ahte filled bigots. The closet was a terrible place to live for so many for so many years. I am glad they are out. I for one don't want to send them back in.

If you refuse to see the connections, regretfully, there is no more that I can say.

Respectfully,

Joe P

Many voters excuse the negatives of both major parties in the USA because they think that they must support one or the other, because no minor parties have any chance of influencing policy. I don't think that way, but I certainly understand why most voters do, so we can't automatically condemn someone, based on party affiliation alone (at least not the two major parties). I know Republicans who do not want to deny equal rights to homosexuals and Democrats who do not want to abolish gun rights, but they support their parties for other reasons. Even in my case, I tolerate the Libertarian Party's position on abortion, because I agree with the party on so many other things.

To have issues with George Bush or Bill Clinton is fine. To intensely dislike either President is fine. To compare Bush to Hitler or Clinton to Stalin (some right-wingers accused Clinton of killing Vince Foster, Ron Brown, etc.) is going so far over the line of reasonableness, that one loses credibility in any political discussion for doing so. Bush is against gay marriage (as is John Kerry and a majority of citizens in the USA). In my opinion, that means he's against equal rights for homosexuals, so I have a problem with Bush on that issue. However, I don't have to accuse him of hating gays and wanting them dead. That's just silly.

In a two party system, yes, the best course is to choose among the candidates who best serve your issues. Yes there are Republicans who voted down the Marrigae ammendment. But to call the comparison of Bush to Hitler "silly" is to have one's head in the sand. Is he going to build concentration/extinction centers for teh Jews?- no. But is a openly fascist, in deed if not in word? - Yes.

The point again is not that Bush personally will kill gays, but as the leader of a nation he has the ability to set the tone and climate of the country and to set the limits of what may be tolerated - especially by appoimtments to the Federal Judiciary, where his legacy will be felt for many years..

Of course there are Republicans who support liberty and equal rights, but their leader has set a tone of intolerance by pandering to his bigoted constituency. That is a dangerous climate to establish.

Madison was adament about stating that the rights of minorities should never be controlled by a majority, which is exactly what has just happened.

It is un-American. It is also very dangerouse. That is where the Hitler comparison comes to play. Hitler set the tone for the average god-fearing German Christian who had typical traditional anti-semetic feelings, and allowed them to translate those feelings into overt action, or at least not to protest when others committed violence against Jews.

Oh yes we have anti-discrimination laws here, and gay beatings are illegal. But ant-gay violence is on the rise as is gay bashing.

As the leader of a nation you set the tone and climate. Mr. Bush is a compassionate Christian Conservative who managed a capital punishment factory in Texas, has unjustifiedly invaded a sovereign country, has supported monumental bombardments of civilian populations, supports government intervention in a female's womb in support of traditional values, and has called for the suppression of the rights of a minority.

Hey, if you like the guy - it's your choice.

I am a twenty five year Libertarian, but I voted aginst Bush by voting for Kerry. As David Crosby once wrote, "I may be crazy, but I ains't real dumb."

If you believe this is all intellectual diatribe, and can't really can't see what is happening in this country - well, then, bless your pure little hearts.

Gloria, You asked me a direct question several posts back, regarding a course of action.

I have not ignored it. I do have some sugegstions.

If you seriously want a detailed answer, I will post one as soon as my plate clears a bit.

I am currently involved in some lengthy business nonsense, among which is trying to work with state officials on a grant to help restore a train station I saved from demolition.

That is one of the lessor projects .

It may take some time, but I will get you an answer.

joe p

"This is not the America I was born into. I cannot make you see that; but it is there for the seeing."
I agree with that statement but Im'm afraid it is for another totally different reason. America has changed in the last 25 years and not for the best. As I see it as Russia has become more capitalistic, America has moved an equal amout to socialism.

"As far as seeing only the ammendment to the constitution as being anti-gay" I said that it could be construed as anit gay, I did not say it was anti-gay.

"As far as changing the word marriage, why should someone have to do that?"
Finally an easy question and one that can be answered very easily. After looking up the dictionary definition of "Marriage"
in as many places as I could find, the dictionary definition is: marriage – marriage is the legal union of a man and woman as a husband and wife.
I just think it is easier to accept new wording that means the same thing than try to force 99% of the population to redefine a word in a "in your face" manner.

"Every single person on this site is challenging the status quo. Why don't we just change what we are called. Maybe all the post-ops should agree to be called "post-ops" and not men or women. Maybe gay men should be called Gay Smith instead of Mr. Smith."

Most of the time you strike me as a very intelligent person, and then you respnd with this.... this is not one of those times.
Has nothing to do with redefining marriage
And in you own words: "Marriage is marriage"

There are organisations which profess a credo of hate as their raison d'etre all over the world directed against many different people. It could be their colour, their religion, or in our case our sexuality; and we should never, or as some girls seemed to have been trying to do, deny the political agenda that drives them. It serves to remind us why networks such as ours are so important. I do think sometimes we should address the hatred and bigotry we find closer to home. How many times I wonder have I been shocked by the views I have heard expressed by people I thought I knew quite well, or conversations I have simply overheard. We should never be complacent or imagine we are secure in society regardless of the comfort we may have in our own lives. Governments can legislate but winning hearts and minds and social acceptance is another thing. Having been a victim myself I know how quickly things can turn.

For about 13 yrs I would irregularly, but often frequently, sit on a bus bench, staring down an alley. I still felt alone with my secret. What I didn't know was that two, short blocks down that very alley was Lydia's TG boutique and the gateway to others like myself. But I was denied that succor for over a decade, until the internet led me there AFTER I found TW. Why? Because it was off the main street, not facing it,and with no sign that could be seen telling me what was there. Even had I walked down that alley I would have walked past it. Later, the parallel of a Synagogue hidden in Nazi Germany hit me. They had to hide so most of us were denied the relief that would have been ours had we know of Lydia's and the TG world it was the gateway to. It was one of the most emotional moments of my life. It was when I first truly saw the oppression we lived under. When I was alone, it wasn't clear. When I realized I was kept apart, it was stunningly clear. Perceptions are based on premises. Those who wrote the anti GLBT articles live under different premises, promises that many of us shared for years...for a lifetime. I once believed something was wrong with me. Even though I did not wish it I believed I was shamefully perverse. Why? Because my basic premises were the same as those who published these sites. What other conclusion could I come to. I was, after all, the ONLY one like me in the world....and later one of a few warped individuals. Psychological abuse by my father only contributed to this certainty of my failings.

We get angry at these people. We get angry at our friends. But they are, also, victims of a social system that pervades our entire lives and states "facts" that we now know are not true. After over 30 years of working with psychotic individuals, I know that they, far more than the well-adjusted, see evil and hate where it is not. They accuse others of intent they do not have. So are these people any different? If they were well-adjusted they would not feel the need to make these protestations for they would not feel threatened by us. So which of us IS "sick" or "perverted"? My experience is it is she who feels the need to attack others and sees only the "worst" in a person. We are genetically very close to chimpanzees, yet humans see them as very different. We notice differences, not similarities.

If you have an "enemy" you defeat him by understanding and using that understanding; not by hating. Hate, anger, disrespect....these cloud your judgement in "combat". A clear mind, free of emotion, more readily overcomes opposition. Of course the Democrats and Republicans are similar! They always have been. The differences have changed and grown less is all. Even fundamentalist Christians are more similar to us than different. We are just more willing to accept their differences than they are ours. So who does that make more "Christian" in their lifestyle? Ignorance is not always bliss. Sometimes it causes great stress. These are people who fear making decisions for themselves. We do not fear decisions nearly so much, though it sometimes seems we do. That is only be cause we actually MAKE decisions while they never have to. Their truths and rules are rigid and leave no room for choice.

Do I risk some growing pogrom against GLBT people by being open? I think not. I know however that it does not matter for wiser people have stated a greater truth. "Never again!!!" I shall not go quietly should that come about. I already know I would rather die than be "cured". Knowing that, I will seek change in whatever way seems most effective.

As for the Fundamentalists....Screw 'Em. After all, are their lives not miserable enough as they are? They don't need me, or you, to make it so.