Oh....Dear!!! I think we are opening a can of worms talking about religion...lol. But seriously I don`t think that religion itself is fundamentally flawed.And I am including all religions not just christianity.It`s people that are flawed and the way they interprit religion that causes all the problems.
Two different people can read the same piece of text and see a totally different meaning,that`s were the problem lies.
This is just my humble opinion.

I watched a very intresting show on MSNBC. 2 post-op M/F TS's that changed from living thier lives as females back to males.
The first one thought that becoming a woman would give him that story book life that he fanasized about. A husband, family, nice home. But after 2 failed marriages & a string of short relationships found that life as a woman was still the same. Than decided that he was happier as a man & went through changing back. Life is still not easy but thinks he made the right choice. Though he can't reverse the sexual organs.


The second was serching for piece of mind when she started going to a church. The church told her that what she did was wrong & went through great steps to get her to revert back to being a man. The church brought in a surgeon that would remove her breast implants the next morning if she wanted it done. She had it done & now went through all the steps to become a man again. Her shrink is livid. Because although she was pretty comfortable with herself as a woman she feels out of place again as a man & wishes she never would have tried to change back. She has twice attempted to take her life.

So what I see is that the first one was living a fantasy & never should never have had it done in the first place.

The second was a real TS that caved under outside pressure to be what they thought she shoud be.

So I wonder where I fit in. Is my being a TS a fantasy or a fact?

I think in the second case, yes, she caved in to pressure. Clearly she is TS. I hope she remembered to thank the good old religious zealots raising their heads and screwing with people's lives again.

Only the individual knows who or what they are, it isn't up to anyone else to tell them who they are supposed to be. I know who I am and god help the person who tries to say otherwise!!

Grrrr!

Nikki

What an excellent post Karen. In a recent blog or forum I posted something about "now what" . How most everyday chores don't care if you are male or female. That leaves you with what are you hoping to get out of transition, who do you really think you will be? Your final sentence says it all

So I wonder where I fit in. Is my being a TS a fantasy or a fact?

and as easy as it looks to answer, is it?

I think most will tell you they are looking for that inner peace of living a life that matches their mental gender rather than meeting societies expectations based on the outward appearance they were born with. I can go along with that but is that all there is to it? In your examples can both still be TS? I think so.

I often talk about real world and fantasy. Maybe sometimes I upset others because I point out the negative side of life as a TS. Ignoring that stuff won't make it go away. Likewise, expecting a fairy tale ending sets you up for a rude awakening. Everyone's ability to mentally handle those challenges is different and in the end we see the contrasting stories you have presented.

Hugs,
Marsha

Karen. I feel sympathy for them both actually. Both vulnerable, both needy, both susceptible.

As for your question, 'Is my being a TS a fantasy or a fact?' Isn't the answer also 'both'? Because prior to understanding the conflict between your physical being and your gender, isn't likely that you fantasise about changing sex? Then once you learn that transformation is possible, when you are confident with your diagnosis, if you resolve to pursue that fantasy, doesn't it then become factual?

(I admit, that sounds like b*****it but as I've typed it, I'll post it...)

Rachel - what do I know?!

shouldnt the religeous nutters get thrown into jail? they should at least be sued for the cost of corrective surgery and compensation etc etc

makes me sick these religeous nutters who think its their privilege to ram their ideals down other people throats.

Well, Penny, I think they would speak differently if an Amendment was passed denying freedom of worship until GLBT's had equal rights.

Ive read the previous posts and frankly, im very sad in the fact that churches dictate their pregiduce abnd hatred on us. As for myself, I belong to a Local Metropolitian Comunity Church where I live. When I first started attending that church, there were five or six trans people there as members. Today, i think its down to maybe two, including myself and an organist. I have mixed feelings as to weither we are accepted or exactly what there nowadays, Remember now, the M C C church was started in California by Gay people. Personaly, and I don't want to sound too pessisimistic but , I don;t know that we will "Ever fit in" . Even before I came out in 1994, Ive had to fight to be accepted as a human being in the dredfull place I was born in , Richmond Va. Yes, we really have made some great strides in being accepted as people . Still, we have a hellava way to go too. One of the primary reasons I post what I do here is to educate those among us who want to know what it means to be trans sexual any one wanting a further explation should P M me personaly , Ill be glad to dicuss the details Ellen Shaver

Hi Karen,

What a dreadfull tale you spread! I felt sad that the first girl did'nt get the help and advice - or maybe did'nt seek it - which would have told her she was looking for an impossible dream. As for the second girl, well, organised or 'traditional' christianity has a lot to answer for! I'll leave it at that or otherwise I'll be writing forever!

Karen, m'dear, you know the question you posed can only be answered by you. You know, I'm sure, which one you are. You know if its a fantasy, a dream, a theoretical aspiration that will never really be followed through. You know if its a fact because intinct and drive takes you through come what may.

Methinks your question may be just a tease...

Much love

Rae xx

I am not overly religous but it bothers me to hear so many misinformed uneducated attacks on religion. Just like the UK NHS one size fits all approach to transition, you think all christians come from the same mold. There are definitely some christians that are hypocrites, but you know what, there are plenty of TG's, politicians, electricians, plumbers, housewives, postman, engineers, and on and on that are also hypocrites. So I guess we are all bad. What a shame that I come to a site with people who say it is wrong to judge and the first thing they do is judge. You hypocrites.

Marsha

Marsh, how can you not see the influence that the church had on this person?

I'm sure there are a great many people of all religions who don't use their religion to influence others, but there are still those who use it as justification of their actions.

Disagree by all means, and put your argument across but there is no need to attack the person or persons making it. We are all entitled to our views.

Nikki

Karen,
I caught this show on one of my sleepless nights
And agree with you on this.
I will not get into the religion aspect though my views are
lengthy about Mega Churches and there so called
conversion programs.
I have the same question as you and been looking for the answer for the last 20 years or so

I don't disagree at all that the church was wrong to push that gal in the direction they did. But the point I was making was many of the posts immediately classified all religion or religious as bad. The hypocricy is expecting others to not judge us, yet some are willing to immediately judge all religion and religious as bad. There are bad people who are religious and there are also good people. I felt the earlier comments I was responding to lumped everyone together and that was wrong.

Besides, whatever happened to personal responsibility. She could have walked away from that church at anytime. Nobody put a gun to her head.

Marsha

Nobody did put a gun to her head and at the end of the day it was still her decision to revert to being male. We all come under pressure from various sources and it can be a constant battle to stick to our chosen path and swim against mainstream society, when it would be so much simpler to cave in and 'conform'.

We can't do that of course because then we would not only be denying ourselves, but would probably set ourselves on a path to self-destruction. It's happened many times before.

Nikki

Hi, all--

I've held off on posting in this thread, due to my background. See, I'm one of those deaded right wing Christian conservative nutter-types. (I'm even a registered Republican.) Except I don't push everyone about signing up for it; I greatly prefer living my faith on a daily basis than beating people over the head with it.

This doesn't mean I'm perfect. Far from it; I realize all my flaws. (Don't laugh too hard--I realize all your flaws, too.)

Having said that, I missed the special in question, but from the reviews, I can say this much:

1. The first person truly needed to think through what they were doing, no doubt. I have been accused in the past, along with others, that I try to talk people out of living the life I currently enjoy. There's a reason for that, and here is example "A" as to why. This life is NOT for everyone. I've long ago made my peace with where I am and how I look and live. To me, that much is half the battle. I know and understand what I am doing, and how that affects my life.

And I'm quite all right with that.

2. This person chose, for their religion, to make a radical change. Was it right? I can't answer that, having not seen the show in question. I can guess it wasn't--but not for the reason most would give.

Part of the faith I buy into has us acknowledging our humanity. When a change like this is required of one, it is usually couched in terms of appropriating supernatural power and abilities, which (in theory) we can tap into via prayer, Bible reading, etc. For a great many things, this often works for people. Please note I said often and not always. Like psychology, this also involves a true desire for a real, lasting change to happen, for the greater good, and not just paying it lip service.

Now: God does not make mistakes. I am the way I am for a reason, and I wonder if that person is actually following what the Almighty had intended for her...or if, indeed, she was pushed by peer pressure to conform, which is what a great deal of churches want.

Realsitically, most pastors want to see the transforming power of Christ at work in their congregants hearts and lives. Many people forget that the Church, while a religious enterprise, is also a business. Bills must get paid, salaries as well (and please put aside the discussion of how much the TV pastors make--too many pastors have to work a second job just to make a decent salary), and if people don't feel that what they beleive is happening at their church, they will "shop" elsewhere.

If the pastor doesn't want to see the transforming power of Christ at work in their congregants hearts and lives...they should be selling insurance or real estate.

Back to topic: Either way, it is sad to see that people can be hurt by not thinking for themselves, and making informed choices. And that especially goes for t-people.

I am not only wearing the flameproof bra and panties, but flame retardant slacks and a blouse today. I'm off to a job fair, as my religious school position hacked my salary 60%, and the other part-time gig I have isn't quite making up the loss. So, bring on the hot comments....

Luv 'n hugs,
Rev. Mina Sakura, D.Min

It would perhaps be interesting to know whether the the two cases in question were required to do the 1 or 2 years life experience, so derided by Marsha; or not before going for the op.

Minako,we all have our crosses to bear...........and we shouldn't forget that some peddlers of religion,of whatever persuasion,can be very,very,very persuasive........Taliban-style fundamentalism is not the monopoly of any single religion.

I'll get down from the pulpit now............

ciao
Lynn H.

Lynn--

I also deride the RLE; but ONLY because it is pass/fail and life is not pass/fail. I think the RLE is a joke of sorts; someone who isn't going through what you are is going to grade you. In school, we call that a fraud; you have to have classes for many hours before you are allowed to teach in that subject. So, why don't those doing the gaging not have to spend say, six months living successfully as a member of the opposite gender before they are qualified to make such a decision?

Before one has "The Operation", however, they should have to spend full time IRL (even a short time) as a woman. Otherwise, you may well be deluding yourself.

It just shouldn't be pass/fail.

Mina

Back to what the thread was about in the first place, forget the religion argument.

Based on the information Karen gave in the initial account of this story, the church gal "was pretty comfortable with herself" but went to church "searching for piece of mind". That makes you think if she was searching for piece of mind, maybe she wasn't actually 100% comfortable with her original decision. I think the church may have taken advantage of her, but she was equally dillusional in allowing it to happen. Why did she not involve the therapist? I think there are far more issues in this story then any of us know. And once again, it sounded like the church was upfront with their beliefs so why are they being blamed for anything. I think this gal at that moment was looking to be talked out of what she had done and that is why she continued going to that church. Look, you cannot say all TS's are brilliant, I think this gal/guy is messed up in the head.

There is no reason the other one could not be TS but had unrealistic expectations of what life could be after transition. Faced with reality he/she may not have felt they had the strength to deal with the issues she faced. Therefore, life as a guy wasn't so bad. Just think in terms of reverse crossdressing, she is a woman but dressing and behaving as a male which gives her more comfort.

Marsha

i think the 2 year RL test is important. no one tests you except yourself. i think it is sufficient time for someone to really think hard and decide whether transittion is for them or not.

at the end of the day no one stops anyone from transittioning. if one is determined the they will jump through all the hoops with little hastle. if someone doesnt jump through the hoops or has difficulties then there must be some other undelaying factor as to why.

i think the biggest question anyone should ask themselves is "how would i feel, if after srs, i missed being a man? how would i cope?" after transittion you not going to be treated as an equal in the male fraternity or have the same oportunities males get. however, you get the female fraternity like saturday shopping and bingo when you get older.

im waffling now, bets stop lol

Just think in terms of reverse crossdressing, she is a woman but dressing and behaving as a male which gives her more comfort.

Brilliant!

Mina

One thing I forgot............not only do some churches/sects employ extremely persuasive 'salespersons'.There are those who,having diagnosed themselves as TS, are equally persuasive when it comes to convincing the quacks and shrinks that their HRT should have started yesterday and that they'd prefer their GRS tomorrow and not a day later!!Then they wake up after the op..............and/or the Godsquad doorsteps them........................

Meanwhile I'm waiting for the missionary from The Orthodox Church of Latter Day Thetans and Fundamental Adventist Baptists, local Madrasse.....................

Ciao
Lynn H.