Compiled by The National Lesbian & Gay Journalists Association
http://http://www.inthisw[...]=481233

Now this is a topic that is fraught with disagreements. However, we have to start somewhere. I like this terminology list. It is denotative and connotative. It talks about change/trends. I think it will enhance communication in the community and gives us something "official" to use to challenge medical terminology when interacting with medical/psychological professionals who have their own community and language. Yes, it is a US list. Despite that, I do not see anything in great disagreement with the majority of TW members. What do others think about getting permission to permanently post this on Trannyweb as our "official" terminology? I think it is a good start. It's the best I've found in years of researching GLBT issues. I have included this in the Trannyweb TG News(TTN) Feed today, to spread it around. After all, it is the one recommended for use in news stories by Our community's journalists. TTN will be using it where applicable.

I can live with this. Can the rest of you?

http://www.inthisweek.com[...]=481233
I can live with that.
xx

Reads fair to me!

I was a little worried the list would go too far and enter the bedroom but it did not. I thought the terms and definitions were pretty basic and accurate. However, I do not really see this list as being too useful being that the publication it is in is predominately a LGBT publication. Preaching to the choir does little to advance a philosophy.
Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha,
I'm not sure it was clear but the list was "Compiled by The National Lesbian & Gay Journalists Association ", not the publication that reported it. It is their recommendation for correct terminology for reporting GLBT stories. I would have to check their association, but my impression was it was designed for all journalists to use...to educated their own and other journalists. That is an interesting question.

In any event, my suggestion was to get us all on the same track and facilitate communication in the community. We can worry about outsiders once we are together on our terms. I think it also qualifies as a good basic list for those inside and outside the community to start understanding how complex a group we are.

10/10 excellent!

Lynn

Hi Wendy-

It's good that we can have agreed upon terms to use when we discuss things. I think that's extremely important, just as before a debate certain terms and definitions are agreed on beforehand. My only complaint, and it's a personal one, is wondering how "crossdresser" came to be the preferred term for us. Myself, it puts me in mind of Jerry Springer shows and sensationalism. Oh well, I suppose as long as we all agree on terms you can call me anything, just don't call me late for dinner.

Hugs...Joni Marie

Wendy, I still see this as preaching to the choir in the respect that there are absolutely no new revelations in terms on that list. I think the average non-LGBT person could score really high on a multiple choice test of these terms. Those terms on the surface and spoken or written to LGBT individuals of course make sense purely because we know how to properly fill in "the rest of the story."

I am 100% with Joni on this, now that is a first. These definitions do absolutely nothing to portray transgender in a positive light. These are the ultimate basic descriptions leaving the reader wondering if these people are mental cases. How about something like:

transsexual (n.): An individual born with a medical condition which causes that individual to identify himself or herself as a member of the other gender and who acquires the physical characteristics of the other gender. Individual can be of any sexual orientation. To determine accurate use of names or personal pronouns, use the name and sex of the individual at the time of the action.

The original definition can't even get it right between gender and sex. It says transsexuals identify as a member of the opposite sex and an individual can be any sexual orientation. What the heck does that mean? It was obviously written by the L and G of LGBT and makes transgender a sexual thing just as there situation.

After further review of the list I retract my original agreement on the terms and definitions. Both transsexual and transition are wrong.

Hugs,
Marsha

Looks OK to me......


lol xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Anna-Marie

Marsha
I don't realy see what your saying. What you wrote & what was wrote in the list say the samething, just different terminology.
You use the word gender where they use the word sex.
I don't think it's realy possible to define TS in one paragraph. I think they just tried to simplify it.

But what they said about calling someone a TV is right. Katie might want to take it out of the list.

Karen, I believe the topic here is terminology and gender and sex are NOT always the same thing, so why not get it right in the first place. And as for TV being correct, are you sure? There have been plenty of European gals here, especially Scandinavian, argue that cross dressing is the old term and that transvestite is correct.

It is common for gender and sex to be used interchangeably however once again, we know what it really means but the point that is trying to be made is a universal understanding of each term. As long as you leave it up to the reader to interpret, people will split hairs and never fully agree. Sex tends to refer to biology, whereas gender refers to a role in society. I want to live as a woman in society, not just have a female body, therefore I believe gender is the appropriate term.

Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Marsha Ann-

Hon, believe it or not, there may be other things we agree on as well.<g> You just never know.

As far as I'm concerned, though there may be some disagreement on this, there are three basic terms when it comes to discussing TG issues. Without agreement on these basic three, then all you wind up with is misunderstandings. Like one person talking about apples when the other person thinks they're talking about oranges.

So, this is just my understanding. First of all "sex" which is what you are physically, your plumbing. Even that can vary but most people get slotted into either male or female. Then there is "gender" which is between your ears and not your legs and is how you feel about yourself, masculine, feminine, whatever. This lies along a continuum, no one is all one or the other. And finally there's your "orientation", who makes you go sploosh, who you want to jump in the sack with and make hot monkey love all night long. Gender and sex are often used interchangably by "lay people" but really aren't the same, or shouldn't be for what we are discussing here on TW most of the time.

So for those who remember their basic highschool algebra (I still remember that day in highschool when a sabre tooth tiger ate my gym teacher.) we all lie somewhere along a 3 axis graph depending on our sex, gender and orientation. My gender seems to vary from day to day, some days I feel very girly, others not quite as much but I am for sure more on the girly side of the origin of that axis.

Anyway, just my two cents worth. Let's hear more.

Hugs...Joni Marie

I'm not comfortable with the idea of being "defined" by the GLB community.

The relationship between the transgender community and the GLB community has reached a point of diminishing returns, and it's clear that the GLB community has its own needs and its own agenda, does not understand or care about the needs of the trans community.

That the outdated expression "drag" is included among this nomenclature is a good example, as well as the decidedly biased description of the Stonewall riot, an incident precipitated by Sylvia Rivera and other transgender people, and that has been since appropriated by the GLB as their rallying cry, overshadowing the courage of Sylvia and other early trans activists, that the GLB community suffers from serious misconceptions about us that have been and continue to be harmful to us.

Any and all presumptuously authoritative attempts by the GLB community to speak in our behalf should be rejected.

First, there is anatomical sex and genetic sex. One is what you see, the other is in your cells. Developmental morphology can leave someone with ovaries who appears male externally, etc. Intersexed, another version of birth defect in our community. How DOES one find terminology for endless variations on birth defect?

The term Gay is widely used by different groups, not just gays (who can be "gay" or "lesbian"). I often see the term Gay ___________ when what is meant is LGBT. This may be because they see Gay = Queer, which it isn't.....always. That can be offensive. If I was TS, I would find my marrying a male to be termed "Gay Marriage" as highly offensive. It would be a marriage of a man and woman. Yet I don't think the term is always intended to be offensive.

Yes, terminology needs to be revised and developed. We have to start somewhere to get to that goal. If you think it's hard, try being a biologist as well. It can be mind numbing. There are genotypes and phenotypes in genetics. There are similar "visible" and "hidden" bits in transgenderism and other GLBT related aspects. If you see a stereotypical gay person, you don't know their gender identity unless they wear it or state it. That's hidden, (phenogendered?) In the same way, a gay football player can be "hidden" as a heterosexual male to the average observer, but (pheno-oriented; aren't we all). This is very complex. It can be worked on.

"Drag" is a valid and specific term when applied to Drag Queens and Kings. Who may have NO gender identity with the gender they portray......or may. "drag" is a term for the clothing worn when cross-dressing. Transvestite and cross-dresser denote EXACTLY the same thing. The connote different things to different people. I've seen where two people switched the meanings of each term to where they were reversed from each other.

I see no reason we can't expand on each term and perhaps have a link to opinion articles elaborating on a term, such as Marsha has done. This would let people know where there was disagreement both qualitatively and quantitatively and provide directions for discussion of a list of modified terms which we could even send back to the group that created this one. I applaud their effort to not allow Jerry Springer to be our spokesperson. The first step in getting equality is to control the language used to refer to us. We should be the ones to determine what we are called. It's time to make this Ours. I think this list made that an important point. The individual has the right to be referred to by the term they identify with. I identify as "two-spirit person" but I'm not offended by "transgendered person". or "intergendered". .it saves a lot of "education" time for me.

Despite valid questions about the list of terms, it is an improvement on what I read daily in news articles from all over the world. We can't reach any consensus, or a consensus to have some kind of general consensus, unless we hear each others' thoughts and feelings on this and then stop and try to understand that position. I find TG/TS redundant, but it makes enough people happy that I usually do it. If nothing else, it makes the public think...."Why two terms?" So keep posting your thoughts, nobody can be wrong here. We are communicating.

hiya,

i have to agree with robyn. it is in my experience that i have received more disrespect from the gay comunity, all be it unintentional, than from any other peer group.

the impression i get is that the LGB comunity see Trans people as "one of us" and automatically assume that we share all the same desires and tastes. i am often seen as just a bloke in a dress because it is my understanding that some gay men dress up in womens clothing for entertainment and maybe to fulfil a sexual role. it is so frustrating when I get a gay man chat me up and ask if i will do him after or if he can suck my c0ck. for me, that is the ultimate form of disrespect, but thats me, other trans people might be different. i have grown a great disliking to going to gay bars and the like to avoid those situations.

im not saying all gay people are like that because I have made many nice gay friends. I just saying that the ones who are less educated seem to feel that both being under the umbrella of "LBGT" gives them the license to behave really crass simply because i am "one of us" instead of making an equiry to what my tastes are.

although i think the definition list goes a long way to help create solid definitions of the different aspects of being human there is definately room for improvement. i think the biggest improvement would be for the gay comunity to recognise the difference and validity of the diversity within the trans comunity. the trans comunity will have a stable and correct platform to explain our constitution once the trans comunity is treated with respect by the gay comunity. im sure there are many parts of the gay comunity which try to fulfil this but theres a long way to go. thats my understanding and opinion.

in addition to that lol, i have always said that freedom is a responsibility to ensure that everyone enjoys an equal share of freedom. those who think freedom is ultimate tend to forget and disrespect the freedoms of others and ultimately become fascists. this is how i fear the gay comunity has become. i do not attend gay pride and awarenes parades because instead i attend the equal rights and equality for everyone events.

thanks
penny
x

http://www.facebook.com/h[...]&ref=nf


http://www.facebook.com/e[...]&ref=nf

Those are great links Robyn, thanks for sharing them. I think it became obvious with ENDA that there was no true support from the Gay and Lesbian communities for our rights. It is all about them and when they are done getting everything they want I still only see a good luck pat on the back coming from their organizations. All that will be accomplished supporting PRIDE will be another person marching supporting gay and lesbian rights but not the rights of transgendered. PRIDE parades have also become more harmful then helpful for the the gay and lesbian communities because they have become an outlet for those seeking to showoff their most outlandish behavior. Joe Public is honestly suppose to think positive things about these people. Give me a break. Take the T out of LGBT! My opinion of course.

Hugs,
Marsha

The devil must be wearing his muffler, cos Marsha and I agree!

ENDA was just the tip of the iceburg. The pattern of GLB selfishness and arrogance is completely out of hand.

Tonight, well meaning representatives of Equality Maryland are holding a transgender forum as an apologetic gesture for their failure to advance inclusive legislation in the Maryland General Assembly. They say that they want to identify issues of importance to the trans community. This condescending attitude sends the message that the GLB leadership in Maryland feels that the poor trannies are unable to advocate for themselves. Dana Beyer, Mara Drummond and the rest of the Maryland trans advocacy leadership need to wake up and see this transparent charade for what it is. EQ MD never intended to insist on inclusion to begin with, and our leadership needs to wake up and realize that a continued relationship with the GLB agenda serves only to perpetuate the misconceptions that oppress us. If, as Barney Frank observed in 2007, we are to educate legislators and employers concerning the trans community, this is where the education effort must begin, by making the distinction clear between the ideas of sexual orientation and gender identity.

I allowed Mara Keisling to convince me to join the National Gay Lesbian Chamber of Commerce. Upon being a member for a few months, I identified some issues with membership unrelated to my trans identity altogether, and brought them to the attention of their management. My suggestions as to how membership benefits might be improved were dismissed, I believe because I am among all of three trans owned businesses out of the hundreds of GLB members of the organization. When I inquired about NGLCC's commitment to supporting its trans members, I was directed to a survey intended to, once again identify issues of concern to trans people.

Now, even if such organizations as NGLCC, EQ MD and HRC are in earnest in their support of the trans community, which I do not for a minute believe they are, this not only indicates an unacceptably condescending approach, but also clearly shows that these people who would presume to advocate in our behalf haven't a clue as to how to go about it. When we seek trans related medical care, we should not be expected to educate our caregivers. Why should we take the additional step to educate a "middleman" in our political struggle? We obviously need to take the situation in hand and stop outsourcing our advocacy to those who have no interest in our success, or any knowledge of our needs. For all the good it's doing, we might just as well establish a call centre in Mumbai. "Hello and thank you for calling the transgender community. My name is Mujibar. How may I helping you today?"

In this week's issue of "The Blade," Barney Frank is already backpedaling about his previously stated commitment to an inclusive ENDA, and the bill has yet to even be introduced. The time has come to take ownership of our struggle. We've no one but ourselves to blame for allowing our cause to be appropriated as just a bargaining chip in the agenda toward GLB rights with no regard for the trans community.

There seems to be a a very distinct demarcation line being drawnin press, media and legal circles between the GLB's- actually its the L's rather than the G and B's - who are transphobic and trying to claim intersex and transsexualism as LGBT things rather than transsexualism being a separate and distinct biological thing compared to the sex thing that all research has shown to be the motivation for LBG.
Notable L's of the Bindel/Burchill/Greer/Raymond ilk continue to ridicule true TS and ensure plenty of nasty media crap.
This Equality Bill being debated in Pariament sesm to be intended to make it illegal for a TS to seek some education or some jobs or use changing room to try clothes on etc, but if this same crazines was extended to say LGBs were to be banned from edcuation and these jobs they would be screaming from the rooftops.
I rather get the impression that the Equality Bill is based on the transcrap in the press last year when a post-op turned up to help and old lady just out of hospital and her daughter bitch from hell started yelling about the post-op being a bloke in a frock/pervert etc...headlines like that just feed the bigots..

Penny,

I've seen, what you described, called "Cross-Activism". It goes back to "None of us are free unless all of us are free." Allowing any discrimination means you could be next. Compared to TGs in the West, African TGs have a horrendous life. We can't stop once we get our rights until they have theirs. GLB's can't stop till we have ours. It's about everyone. Disabled people support LGBT rights because they understand this. It was not that long ago that they could not marry either. It's about everyone. The DALLAS PRINCIPLES make this clear. To paraphrase one of the principles..."Leave no TG person behind".

That’s absolutely right Wendy. And my point in mentioning that aspect in this thread is that I find it appalling that some find the hypocrisy to fight for the rights of one peer group whilst completely disregarding the rights of another. Previous generations, during the 2nd world war, experienced the damage to society that that kind of fascist thinking can create and that helped the leaders in the developed world see the sense for a none discrimination law that applies to everyone and not just particular peer groups. Be it white, black, jew, muslim, fat, disabled, gay, transgender. How can anyone justify anything less? because that would be neo nazi fascism. Lets hope the leaders of third world countries who lack such a law for everyone don’t take too long to catch up.

I’ll get off my soap box now lol. I find myself quite passionate about this simply because of what I learnt during my own internal fight to allow myself the freedom to live as a woman.

Here is more fuel for the discussion......by Matt Kailey, Denver Transgender Issues Examiner.

"Matt is an award-winning author and a professional speaker, trainer, and consultant on transgender issues. He is the author of Just Add Hormones: An Insider's Guide to the Transsexual Experience, the editor of Focus on the Fabulous: Colorado GLBT Voices, and the managing editor of Out Front Colorado newspaper."

http://www.examiner.com/x[...]-lesson

Better or worse? Comments? Did a TG "expert" do a better job than "GLB"s? I certainly see some room for disagreement. I am going to get the extended list of 45 terms and ask for permission to post it here.

Wendy,
In my opinion he did a poor job with defining what makes a transsexual different from other TG's. He made it sound like someone makes themselves a transsexual by having SRS, when I believe it is uniformly accepted that there are pre-op, post-op and no-op transsexuals. If he left it alone with just the first sentence defining transsexuals, he would have been fine, but then again that assumes every transsexual transitions in the first place. Also there are gay drag queens and even crossdressers as we have seen here wanting to "grow breasts". Even though they want to remain men, does that make them a transsexual for making physical changes? Another poor definition.
Hugs,
Marsha

In my opinion this is all great in trying to help educate the general public but I cant help feel that to pigeon hole everyone with labels has its draw backs which could also lead to greater confusion. The problem is misrepresentation and it wouldnt necessarily be caused by the list being inaccurate but it could be by the people using it. If the list is to reflect how the terms are commonly used then I would say that term "transsexual" is an umbrella term similar to transgender to describe a vast spectrum of different individuals who have gender dsyphoria in one form or another.

what is the correct explaination for transsexual when its such a popular term for people to adopt and considering the following...

some who identify as transsexual, continue to live in their birth gender for their wife and children.
some who identify as transsexual, live in their chosen gender but do not make physical alterations due to health reasons.
some who identify as transsexual, have full transsition to satisfy their autogenphilia but still identify as male.
some who identify as transsexual, who identify as female inside and ajust their bodies to suit.
and who is to say it is wrong for someone to identify as transsexual when infact they only express themselves in dressing at home and role play in chat rooms. for me, that it another valid alternative treatment for gender dsyphoria and at that level of opression would never identify as anything other than transsexual. Im not saying its wrong and I have full respect for these people, im just saying its the way it is.

Its not about defining the terms and then trying to force everyone to use them apropriately but instead about describing how the terms are already used.

These are just a few situations but I think you get the idea. Maybe new lables need to be created but then would these be adopted?

Its complicated and I require further thought on the subject lol. Thanks for reading my contribution.

How can one ever have accurate labels for what is a spectrum of identities. One side effect of doing the TRANNYWEB TG NEWS Feed is that I am beginning to get a bit bothered by being included in the "Gay" moniker by lazy journalists. My understanding of TS not wanting to be called TG has become more than just intellectual and sympathetic. I'm starting to feel it. It's a bit of "marginalized" and "disenfranchised". It isn't a question of being identified as "Queer", but I identify as Lesbian, not Gay. Living in Silverlake, CA, for years, I got used to being misread as Gay, probably because I didn't react negatively to gay men. This is not the same as being labeled as "Gay" when trying to gain acceptance as what we are. I'm sure it is the same for most TS seeking separation from the TG label. It's not putting down CD's, it's a strong internal identity as women and wanting that accepted.

Nevertheless, like A, B, C's, one must teach the uneducated a step at a time. The uneducated included me some years back and includes a number of new TW members every year. If nothing else, we need to know what those outside the Community call us. This is the only way we can identify what educational needs they have. Make no mistake, unless we educate them, we fail in our goals. We need to find a solution to this dilemma. TGs are smarter than average, TS even more so. We can do this. This is the time to leave a legacy that will help our cause. If we don't share a common goal, we won't come to a common consensus.

Interesting points Wendy.

I think this is a good oportunity to clearly define various aspects of the transgender spectrum. Hopefully this will go along way to educate the outside world to the differences so when the gay comunity mock the transgedered, as mistrels used to mock black people, the outside world will know the difference and remain enjoying the entertainment whilst also understanding us better and giving us the respect we deserve.

I think Matt provided a pretty good "nutshell" for those outside the community. In my role with the International Foundation for Gender Education, this is a lot of what we do. To go into any greater detail just causes the average person to glaze over and stop paying attention, thus making the task of further education much more difficult.

Certainly, those of us within the community recognize all the variations in gender expression, but to present these in greater detail to "ordinary" people only serves to confuse them.

I do like the minstrel show analogy with regard to drag queens, and I think that is an important thing to emphasize when trying to convey the clear distinction between the "T" and the "GLB."

I also agree that a major source of the marginailzation we experience is the GLB community. I have found ordinary people to be much more accepting and understanding, especially when given the opportunity to learn more about us.

Anna and I had a customer today who was very friendly, and after we installed his new home theater, he asked us what we thought about "all this gay rights stuff." We both responded that we are pretty much indifferent to the issue of same sex marriage, and explained to him that we aren't actually gay. He looked puzzled. I said "It's apples and oranges. Gay is about who you f***. Being transgender is about who you are." He said "Whoa! I need a minute." After pondering it for a bit, he said "I think I get it."

This guy was so happy with our work that we will be installing similar systems for his parents and one of his friends. This is how the most effective education happens. One person at a time.

Now that you put it that way Robyn, I have to completely agree with you. I have always been a proponent of not overwhelming people at first. Give them the basics and when they are ready for more, build on it. Too much does tend to confuse and cause disinterest in the subject.

And your philosophy of educating one person at a time, again I agree 100%. For my business I have chosen not to send anything out in bulk to my customers regarding my situation, instead I have talked to each one in person as their appointment came due. I also believe people are sheep so I always say "my customers have been so accepting and supportive to me." Look at it this way, if you said "Yeah I have lost over half my customers because of this." the customer would be thinking to themselves ok i wouldn't be alone not wanting this person at my home. But back to the one on one, that allows others to think for themselves rather than be persuaded by outside factors. We already have churches and rednecks calling us perverts, we don't need a mob mentality after us as well and that is what you tend to get when you have a group of uneducated people.

Hugs,
Marsha

That’s a great story Robyn and wish you further success with that.
Agreeing with Robyn and Marsha, I do also believe that an initial basic approach is correct.

Matt’s explanation is fairly good but I wish to make a couple of points which I believe need consideration...

The explanation solely concentrates on the physical appearance and modifications. This would imply that a transgender individual would only become transsexual once particular modifications have been undertaken. A qualification to be transsexual for want of a better expression.

Little is said about the conflict between internal gender identity and physical gender. Personally i would prefer explanations concentrating on how transsexuals feel rather than the steps they take to appease the conflict.

Personally, I would change Matts’ explanation from…

Transsexual: a transsexual person is a transgendered person who makes physical changes to the body in order for the body to match the gender identity. This is called gender transition, gender reassignment, sex reassignment, or sex change--depends on who you ask. Not all transgendered people undergo a gender transition, so not all transgendered people are transsexual.

To…

Transsexual: a transsexual person is someone whose natal gender conflicts with their internal gender identity. They take steps to live as naturally as they can in the role of their internal gender and often go on to have gender reassignment, sex reassignment, or sex change, depending on whom you ask, but this step is not always performed.

The first sentence sets precedence for the whole paragraph and focus has been moved from physical changes to internal feelings. I appreciate this is all semantics but for me the later explanation just sits better. And of course is open to further scrutiny...

I think that Matt's initial description is based on information obtained from therapists. Those of us in treatment are generally asked during an initial screening interview whether we have undertaken any efforts to change our appearance. I think this is one of the therapeutic criteria used to determine whether a patient is actually transsexual.

And now a list from the NCTE - National Center for Transgender Equality:

http://nctequality.org/Re[...]ogy.pdf

I'm really interested in what people think of this one, considering the source.

Wendy, I think that list of terms does a much better job than the first list. here is a direct link to that list: http:// http://nctequalit[...]gy.pdf

Hugs,
Marsha

Here's the link again.................

http://nctequality.org/Re[...]ogy.pdf


Lynn