I really do dispair of the Press & in partiicular the " Rag" we call the sun, cos the following story was in it on saturday in big headlines on the front page & inside too. Something should be done about them.....but WHAT?


http://www.thesun.co.uk/s[...]rl.html


Lol xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Anna-Marie

Mmm. I really am struggling with what to say. I appreciate the Sun is a sensationalist paper [for the UK anyway] but I'm also feeling a very big disquiet at two young children changing gender at such a young age.
On the one hand I think 'great' the message is getting through. But, lurking in the shadows, is a feeling of despair that I can't quite put a finger to.
Do I think 'wow, I wish I had known my mind so clearly at that age'? Yes I do. But that's also my problem. I didn't. And I really wonder if they do?
I really really think this is too much too young. But I will freely admit I don't have an answer.
I agree I spent the years they are now in, in confusion, and lacking clarity. But I didn't understand anything back then enough to make a formative judgement.
These kids have barely entered childhood.
I appreciate - and apologise - that I'm not exactly making sense, but I'm not sure anyone involved in these stories knows what sense is.
Maybe a period of androgynism, a stepping stone. I don't know.
Maybe I'm just getting old...

Rae xx :/

Rae--

You're not alone in this. Nine is just too young--in my trained opinion--to be making these kinds of choices. Children are just too young, period.

Also in my opinion, so are most teenagers (not all--but most), and I really feel you can't make an informed decision until you have more than a few years under your belt from what we call High School here in the States. This is arbitrary--but I'd say under 23 is pushing it. 25 is better...you have some life experiences by then.

Luv 'n hugs,

Dr. Mina

I have to differ on lots of points: firstly I really did know I was different and not a proper boy,
secondly...special needs teacher? has the kid got other problems?
third: mother says boy doesn't know difference between bodies? she has kep him in a darkened dungeon?
out in the real world lots of pre-ts boy kids parents have been told their kid should have been a girl.

but regarding the kid's rights: if the kid really does feel then its the parent's duty to help just the same way its the duty of a parents of a baby with ambiguous genitals to tell the medics to keep thier scalpels away from the kid until it figures itself out.
the schol has a duty to provide safe education and should have prepared everyone earlier..


and then there is the 'outing' of the child to all the local bigots and letting all the pervs on the local sex offenders register know there is a transkid in the area.

there are so many nasty aspects to this story that it really is time the Press Complaints Commission got some backbone and put an end to such stories.

Rose--

"and then there is the 'outing' of the child to all the local bigots and letting all the pervs on the local sex offenders register know there is a transkid in the area."

There's only a part of the problem. That's dangerous enough, but then you add the bullies and older kids in the area in on it. Kids can be cruel enough to their own, as I recall. There is a need to be accepted, to be part of the gang, crowd, posse or whatever you call it. This transkid is never really going to have that. Having been outed publicly like this, the only chance now is to move far away and start all over.

My life: According to The Momma, I was supposed to be a nine pound girl. I was a seven pound something ounce boy. So there's that.

At nine, I didn't know all the differences in male/female bodies either. I turned nine in third grade. We didn't get the beginnings of sex ed until late in the fourth grade year; I would have been 10 at that point. I knew there were some basic differences...but that was all. (In fact, I never saw a nude women's body until I was 12-13 or so. That's when I was introduced to porn.) I certainly wasn't kept in a dungeon!

Your point: "firstly I really did know I was different and not a proper boy." So did I. I knew there was something totally other about me, but could (partially) chalk it up to being epileptic. I didn't know until years later where the real issues were. A nine year old child (usually) does not know that either. You did--but you are one of the rare exceptions, I suspect. I only had suspicions. It wasn't until high school that I first had any real inklings of just how different I was--and even then, it was some five or six years later than my being nine. So, that would make me 14-15. (And even then, I didn't really want to believe it.)

Life was different in the 1970's and early 1980's than today. Some things you just didn't share, much less do. You kept it to yourself, or worse, buried it. Had I gone the route described in the story, I am quite sure my parents would have worked me out of it. Even if they didn't, Child Welfare Services would have stepped in. They were a lot less liberal in those days, and I know that you know that.

Even with all that, however, I still maintain that nine is just too young to make those rather permanent choices. Even giving that everything in the story is true, if I were that parent, I'd find/make/create a way to let the child experiment at home in private, and MAYBE if this held up to be the case, would wait until at least 12 or 13. Give it a few years, to see if it really was true. Kids have a vivid mind, and even today are still way too young to make such a life altering choice.

Luv 'n hugs,

Dr. Mina

I can't really make up my mind about this one, yes I might have known something was 'different' about me at nine, but I don't feel I would be in a place to be able to whole-heartedly insist on a gender change, not until mid-teens was I really sure about that. Even then, it was put down to typical teenage puberty issues. (I'm sure that sounds familiar).

It's wonderfully supportive of the parents if this is truely genuine as at least the person can grow into the gender they feel is right, but I'm still of the belief that at nine, that's far from being certain. It could be decided for you of course, maybe that's the case here, but that just isn't right.

As for the comments of parents not being told. Why should they, they have no right to know anything about this person, and should in fact treat them no differently as they are advised to. 'How can our chidlren do that?' - It's called 'education', explain it to your child, and maybe yourself too. How nice that the school is being supportive...........well, they have no choice do they? I'm sure it's less about respecting the rights of the individual and more about not ending up with a lawsuit.

Jeez, I'm a cynic.

Nikki

In my professional opinion., I would not have an opinion until I had the opportunity to talk to both the child and the parents, separately and together, for some time. I have read of children, at a young age, who had absolute tantrums because they were being forced to dress and act/play as their sex-gender rather than the one they felt they were. That is a pretty strong indication that the situation can not be put on the back burner for years. This is a situation where "one size fits all" is definitely not a good idea.

I’m glad you’ve said that, Wendy, it’s how I feel too. I find it a little sad that some people are so ready to make judgements about how a certain child they have never met should proceed with their gender issues, matters that will affect the rest of their life, or presume that the parents in question have not “thought this through” (a ludicrous suggestion!)
I expect the parents and the many psychologists involved have given this a great deal of thought, considerably more than individuals on this forum. But it’s just your opinion and I don’t wish to stifle healthy debate.
Many have already said that they “weren’t sure” at that age, and therefore it’s just too young, but this child obviously IS sure, and parents, teachers and gender specialists are all in agreement.
Stories like this are written in the Sun intending to effect a knee-jerk reaction from its small-minded readers. Now I am not suggesting that anyone here is small-minded, but there are some children who just KNOW, I was one, and had things been different in my life, and had society’s attitude been different at that time, I would have done the same, and would have flourished.
I came out ok in the long run, but it’s not the same for many trans people, and I’ve seen a few seriously screwed up examples. We forget the flip side - that if this girl is forced to live as a boy it will have far more adverse effects than school bullies or tittle-tattle.
Frankly, I’m slightly surprised to see so much “caution” here, and reluctance to accept that this is a condition we are born with and live with every day, until we find the level of cure that we need. For some of us, there is only one way to live: completely female, no ambiguity.
And the sooner the better.
xx

Wendy--

Here's where you and I will have to agree to disagree. Children throw tantrums quite often. I did, and I'll bet you did as well.

Now, if my child did throw a hizzy-fit because of wanting to be a girl, I'd put my foot down at that time. Generally, 8-9 is just too young. They might want to be a girl today, and quarterback for the Dallas Cowboys next week, and a guitar playing brain surgeon astronaut the week after that. (In all fairness, they might want to be just a girl today, a Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader next week, and a rock and roll diva-queen the week after that. I'll touch on that in a sec.)

But, come high school time--when the child is anywhere from 13-18--we could have a more serious, informed discussion. That's when a serious look at a truly legitimate RLE could take place. That's when the most help could be available, from both a parental and a psychological aspect. (School districts often have in-house counselors, and there would potentially be a group/club for the student in question.) And college age even more so, in terms of support groups.

HOWEVER...I am also against painting with too broad a brush. There might be (note the word "might" here) the occasional younger child, that has exhibited feminine traits from 2-3 to 9-11, that might want to go there, and I might be willing to explore that in a controlled environment to start.

But I still don't feel a public school is the place to run such a controlled experiment with my child's gender issues.

Luv 'n hugs,

Dr. Mina

Minako, I cannot see where I am disagreeing with anything. I do not have an opinion on this case. I made two simple statements:

1. I would not form an opinion without primary source information.
2. I had read of cases with children where (and I neglected to say over a long period of time) they had shown strong, certain, unwavering identity as another gender.

To me, this hardly constitutes an opinion with which one can agree or disagree.

However, I do have a related opinion:

I do feel, in general, that children CAN know their correct gender at a very young age. I am very happy at present with the new guidelines on administering anti-androgens to pubescent transsexuals. I would like to see some serious study done on the issue of younger children being allowed to take on gender roles that are in their comfort range. I am uncomfortable with outsiders protecting us from ourselves as Gatekeepers of chemical and surgical transition taking the same attitude about letting people, of any age, go with their internal gender urges. The only real damage is caused by ignorant members of society. Shouldn't it be them that are getting treated for their bigotry? The child may be damaged by denying them their needs. I know that forcing me to be "more masculine" did a lot of damage to my life and collateral damage to those who had to deal with my attempts to fake it. Of course you do not let a child play in a field with lions. The answer is to remove the lions, not keep the child locked up inside.

Now you may feel free to disagree with my opinion.

I think I'd let the child live as a boy or girl if they seemed to want to so badly.
But I'd hold off doing anything permanent untill they were older.
I would just be to afraid of making a mistake.

Wendy--

We agree on this: I would also like to see some serious study done on the issue of younger children being allowed to take on gender roles that are in their comfort range. In fact, since this whole line of threads have posted, I have been thinking of how to set up a safe(r) RLE for a pre-high school age child, as well as for a teenager. It has proven to be an interesting line of thought, and I may post it for comment and review if I can get it all worked out.

Your comment--"I am uncomfortable with outsiders protecting us from ourselves as Gatekeepers of chemical and surgical transition taking the same attitude about letting people, of any age, go with their internal gender urges."--seems to defeat, at first glance, the Standards of Care...which I have been a longtime advocate of abolishing. They are artificial, and set by those who will never deign to tread where you and I have long ago passed. As adults, we can make choices (with all the ramifications) because we understand that every choice has a consequence.

But children are another matter. They do not always get that, because they are children and do not always think in abstract terms. Most (not all) children think in concrete terms. They can be sharp, bright, intelligent for their age--and still think in concrete terms. Their brains have not always yet developed that ability, again per Piaget. Formal thought processes start at roughly age 11; this includes abstract thought. At age 9, they are still in the concrete stages, a bit less formal logically.

I do know these are just rough guidelines, and I do agree that there are some who know early on that something is amiss. I never want to ban anything for those. But I still maintain that children--being children and not little adults--do not always know best. We need to tread lightly here. Also your comment: "The child may be damaged by denying them their needs." Possible. Please note there there's a lot of "may", "might", and "possibly" in all this. Again, with no serious long term studies on the issue, there can only be guesses, educated judgements, and thoughts and questions on both sides of the issue. "I know that forcing me to be "more masculine" did a lot of damage to my life and collateral damage to those who had to deal with my attempts to fake it." Join the lodge, honey. Except I have worked through the wreckage only to discover that there was much less damage than I first thought. Damage, yes. Scarring, some. Finding the strength to be the woman I have now become as a result: priceless!

Next comment--"The only real damage is caused by ignorant members of society. Shouldn't it be them that are getting treated for their bigotry?" Agreed. Find a cure for that and you'll be rich, dear.

Finally--"Of course you do not let a child play in a field with lions. The answer is to remove the lions, not keep the child locked up inside." I'll buy that--but until you clear the field, you must protect the child, and that may mean keeping the child locked up inside until you have cleared the field.

I'll throw this out for comment as well: We are looking at these issues as TG/TS/CD. We have the benefit of insight that other parents do not have, regardless of how enlightened they may be. It is because of this insight that we forget that some of these transkids may have "normal" (Not TG/TS/CD) parents, that might not understand these needs.

How can we educate those parents, and aid them in making a better informed decision?

Now there's a question for you!

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

the parents and teachers of all concerened should have asked the kid's school mates abot howthey saw the kids and its quite likely that the girls might have seen the kids as being 'not proper boys' (that takes me back to my schoolyears) and once the situation was explained to them would perhaps have been quite happy to accept the kid into girl society...and the boys would perhaps have been happy to see the kids there - apart from Xmas party kissing-under-the-mistletoe time...

what might help understand this is to look at the research of the boy who were ambiguosly genital babies and made into girls only to act and be seen as boys from ages of 5 upwards...these boys are accepted as boys by the other boys even though they have no male genitalia- in effect these boys are boys trapped in a girls body but were accepted as boys...so logically it follows that girls will accept a girl trapped in a male body...which they do...which is what we TS find when we work and socialise with women...but the same women are not happy to have CD/TG among them to the same degree...although personality will influence this a great deal. Obviously there is a slight problem about the kids mentioned having to go through puberty and probly finding their penises making it difficult to use the girls chaging shower rooms for gym but that could be easily controlled with puberty blockers...and I hope someone is keeping an eye on the long term result of puberty blockers...

its this lack of knowledge that is the problem.

Mina if you are going to set up a safe RLE plan for kids, parents, teachers and school governors you need to put this research on the first page and make sure its message is understood.

There was in considerate and balanced interview on the Today programme (BBC Radio 4) this morning with a 16 year old girl whose parents had allowed to commence Anti-Androgens aged about 11. It may be possible to access it on-line. Not sure.. Thankfully it avoided sensationalism.

I have a transgendered friend/acquaintance from Thailand who told me that she knew she wanted to be a lady from the age of six, and completely identified with being female from that age by looking at fashion magazines. Her family and elder sister accepted this, and I believe she presented herself completely as a woman in her teens. She even went through university (studying English literature) presented as a female (incidentally, she is completely passable as a woman), though her official records still refer to her as Mr., which caused no end of confusion amongst her lecturers especially foreign staff. She is still eligible for military service as a man (they have a lottery system), but would first have to report for a medical. This, however, is a formality as the Thai military doctors always make sure that transgendered people are registered as unfit for military service (having a "deformed" chest is often cited on the forms: that just means they have breasts).

I wonder if that would have worked for me. Claiming I was unfit for military duty because I have a deformed chest....no breasts. If not, there is always kissing the Sargent. :-D