If there are so many males who “just want to change their body,” without regard to gender, then why are they calling themselves “women” after they’ve had themselves chopped up? A mutilated male is a mutilated male. As I’ve said before, if males just want to hack off their penises and shove plastic bags under their pecs, how about they call themselves eunuchs instead of “women,” “transwomen,” and “transsexuals”? How about calling themselves males who wanted to chop off their penises and have it fashioned into a hole?

I get so sick of seeing women defend the “transwomen” they know in real life with reminders that not all “transwomen” want to wear dresses and pantyhose. OK, fine, they don’t want to wear dresses. What does that have to do with the fact that they’re still walking around calling themselves all manner of “woman”?

That is the crazy part. That is what makes them insane. One cannot change sex, and any indulgence of the, yes, insane, notion that they can is anti-female. I don’t give a damn what eunuchs wear or don’t wear. All I care about is whether or not society is actually obliging them in any way by calling them women. They are not women, insofar as ‘woman’ means adult human female, and they never will be.

from → Denial, Entitlement, Escapism, Facades, Margaret Jamison, transsexuality


http://aroomofourown.word[...]omments


don't know who "margaret" is....but she sure knows how to make friends!

Hi Maryanne,

You had me scared for your life as I read your post til you attributed it to this Margaret Jamison person...

Best,
Melody

Maryanne

Wow, I had to go research someone who would make such vile comments. I found she is a "lesbian separatist" and seems to be pretty much upset with everyone who does not agree with her.

Well, I won't lose any sleep over her.

Hugs Jeri

In her own words, Margaret Jamison is a "Rolling stone black lesbian separatist with Southern roots. I hate males of all ages, colors, and sizes."

What is fascinating about this story is I go to an all-inclusive church with numerous lesbian couples. I don't know if they all know my circumstances or not but the lesbian gals at church have been extremely accepting of my wife and I. This story does follow your typical uninformed or perhaps misinformed understanding of the scientific findings that have been made on transsexuals. Obviously this gal still see's MTF's as men and there will always be others that will go along with the idea.

It really doesn't matter anyways, we are what we are. So what if we are different, get over it, we are still in most cases good people who deserve to be treated with respect.

Hugs,
Marsha

I suddenly feel really sane, despite transgendered people tending to be mentally healthier than average. I would hate to be the one to analyse her pathology.

These people are too radical to fit into any society that doesn't entirely consist of their own biased thinking. She is entitled to her opinion of course, luckily for her she lives in a free country, at least nowadays, so perhaps she has forgotten her own past and how being judged unjustly by others can lead to so much suffering.

It seems she doesn't much care for women who stoop so low as to have heterosexual sex either.

My impression is just that of a sad agressive b*tch who hates everyone who doesn't fit into her utopia.

And she probably hates us because we look better than her!

Nikki

I have a suspicion that she's a traffic warden in Islington...

THAT WAS A JOKE

I've nothing against Islington, honest.

Rachel

Im a bit annoyed!!!

I made a post on that forum similar to the one I made here and it has been blocked. So much for controlled freedom of speech!!!

Grrr!!
lol

Wow, that Margaret is one sad sicko...must suck to be her. Takes all kinds to make a world though...

Traci

I sent this complaint to wordpress.com

I did:
I responded to an extremely controvercial and sensitive blog/post that i felt required an alternative perspective and point of view that would maybe allow some people to have a more balance understanding.

I saw:
The comments and additional content that offered alternative perspectives being censored resulting in only a one sided perspective to be viewed.

I expected:
An unbias Freedom of Speech where everyone should be allowed the equal chance to express how they feel according to Human Rights. Anyone who prevents equal access for everyone to express themselves and be heard, can be compared to Adulf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Stalin and Osama Bin Ladin. Do you want the world to start believing this site is run by such minded people?

Penny Penny Penny

You made the mistake of believing that the people that run that site want to engage in dialog, when all they want is to present their own prejudiced diatribe. They don’t want to hear any view point other than their own, a classic case of the old adage about – “don’t give me the facts, my mind is made up”. They consider any disagreement as a personal attack and which reinforces their myopic view of how the world is ganging up on them to keep them subjugated to rules on which they place no value.

If they were in charge of anything they would be despotic tyrannical dictators with a very small inner circle made up of fellow paranoid psychopaths. So people like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao are their role models even if they don’t see themselves that way. Fortunately, their views are so extreme I don’t think they will develop enough of a following to become a big problem – or at least I hope so.

Jeri

Jeri,
I agree with your comments. I believe that any individual should be able to express their opinion but not at the subjugation of other's opinions. My complaint was directed at the operators of the website who I believe want to be seen as responsible and adhere to human rights laws.

Many websites that break the law DO get shutdown.

**sighs**

We live in a sad world when people like this can rant and rave, and we have to cover our tracks just to be safe. It really doesn't seem fair now, does it?

And yet, people like this exist, spewing their hatred toward something they have no desire to understand. Meantime here we are trying to build a community, where like minded people can share openly.

Does anyone else get what's wrong with this picture? Or does Little Miss Mercury need to spell it out in one and two syllable words?

I thought as much.

Ladies, we can be just as nasty sometimes with those who disagree with us. Think over some of the posts we've had here in the last 18 months-2 years. (Or longer, for those of you with longer memberships and memories.) Don't we chase off people who don't fall in line with our way of thinking?

Of course we do. I'm not talking about those who come in here and talk trash, or who don't abide by the standards and rules Katie has set before us. How many people have electronically flipped us off and left in a snit because we didn't come around to their way of thinking?

**grins**

Now, I'm not saying I agree with the initial post. That's silly talk, and I don't deal well with that kind of idiocy. Don't go there with me.

What I am saying is that, while we don't agree with her, let's also remember that she's entitled to her opinion, just as we are entitled to believe the moon is made of green cheese, politicians never lie, and the most obvious of all: There's no such things as Lesbians.

Luv 'n hugs,

Mina

Mina, I just have to disagree with you, we don't chase people off here. There is a huge difference between Margaret Jamison and us. I think I am probably one of the better examples of someone who is extremely opinionated here at TW. I think way too often people take things that were not even directed at them in the first place way too personal. We all want to belong, but sometimes we literally beat up on ourselves believing general statements are directed at us. So who is at fault if anyone? Way too often we are looking for someone to blame for God only knows what. We like being victims, or I should say some like being victims. I would love to have that Margaret gal come to TW chat so we could talk. But you know what would end up happening is you would get these gals that would say, "OMG, I don't like what she is saying so I'm leaving." Then you get their friends to jump on the bandwagon and bit@# their way out the door along with them, I just hope the door doesn't hit them in their arse too hard. So I want to know who chased who off? Stand up and be counted, don't go cowardly running away. You can only fear others opinions when you don't have one of your own. So as for Margaret Jamison the author of this nonsense, who cares.

There is plenty of room for everybody here at TW. I've never read anything that says we must all agree and something to go along with that is no one should expect when they show up, the world should stop and bow to their opinion. No one is under pressure to participate in a forum thread or even in a chat room conversation. So again I ask, who is chasing who off?

So Mina I hope you realize I'm only disagreeing with the premise that we chase people away. I'm not disagreeing with what you have said about expressing opinions.

Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha--

We'll agree to disagree. Honey, let's get something straight: I am one of the most opinionated b*tches here. I'm not afraid to show my face on my avatar, make a statement, or tell someone off if/when they deserve it. I've seen way too many ladies with their panties wadded up when they go, and when they go, there's a general sense of "Thank Goddess she's gone, now we can go back to being normal."

These are usually not the longer tenured people here. These are usually newbies that have an axe to grind or an opinion that doesn't quite match the rest of us. There have been a few of us "old timers" that have finally gotten disgusted and gone away, to never return. (Or when they do come back, they have discovered that we're not all a bunch of loons.)

Of course, sometimes they also come back as five or six different people.

So, enough of this.

Oh, by the way--Margaret wouldn't come here as in her world, none of us are real ("There's no such thing", remember?)--therefore, this forum and this website really is just enabling a bunch of deluded fools. Thoughts?

(Really quick before someone's up in arms--I'm not saying we're deluded...just following her twisted line of thought.

Mina

Hugs Mina, yes we can just agree to disagree on this one. You are obviously talking about Anne Selene Fantasia and her alter ego names. There have been a few others like Jack London and that Sensual whoever gal that caused the troops to rally but as a general rule that stuff is few and far between. We are talking trouble makers versus alternate opinions and that is a big difference.

If Margaret Jamison came here to explain her reasoning I would welcome that personally. However, if she came here to spew vial derogatory stuff against the members here in an intentional effort to disrupt and upset the site, then I think we can all agree it would be appropriate for her not to be here. But to talk in the sense of barring someone just because they have the opinion she holds is wrong. It is not the opinion that matters, it is what they do with it.

Lots of hugs always for you Mina,
Love,
Marsha

I don't know who Margaret Jamison is but I do know for a fact there is such a thing as a transsexual.
I'm friends with three girls who've had FFS, two of whom I knew before they had their surgery and I could never ever think of them as anything but women.

Maryanne has certainly started something here and at first I didn't know she was quoting from a particularly notorious Radical Lesbian who comes very close in this gal's opinion to being a Fascist!
At the risk of sounding like a controversalist or one of Marsha's 'Troublemakers' could I reply in what I see as the spirit of Maryanne's thread(if I am not presuming too much)
One of my misgivings as a TG person is that we could be seen to be invading genetical women's personal (and sacred) space .We could also be seen to appropriating an unnearned emotional space e.g.we haven't had the discomfort and inconvenience of menstruation along with milleniae of cultural and and Religious/Ideological opprobrium directed ,however unconciously at 'the second sex' leading me to a constellation of issues under the heading Political/Ideological e.g.Gays,Lesbians etc.as in Stonewall,Spanner have had to fight political battles and have been the first,sometimes the onl y ones to give us a space.To pretend we operate in a political vacuum is selfish and irresponsible.
On a more mundane level-does my adulation of 'Feminity' extend to helping my partner with household chores and does my charity extend to the rather malodorous old lady who lives down the street?
Lastly,and recently I feel most guilty of this-enjoying my 'Makeover' as I most definitely ,am,aren't I subconciously trying to turn a rather ordinary ageing man into a beautiful 'young' woman-the stuff of myth or a kind of 'Dorian Gray' ism surely?
And another thing! -Isn't my willing exposure to 'sisters' all over the globe a kind of exhibitionism?
Still,I agree with you all-what a bigot and harridan!xxxxxx

First off Janis, Margaret Jamison is the person who wrote the vile quote that Maryanne used to start this thread. I think I pointed out that nowhere did I agree with this gal, I hope that came across clear. Cris you said there is no room for a gal like this. Now realize I said if they are here to disrupt or intentionally cause trouble then they don't belong here, but if we keep out those with differing opinions are we not doing the same thing as some of the churches and other TG haters. Would we not be preaching to the choir. And if we do that, how do you ever expect people to change and understand us better? And yes Cris, I agree much of the arguments here are do to misunderstanding or like I mentioned, taking a generalized statement and taking it personal as if it was directed solely at them or applying the same statement to everyone when it was only meant for some.
Hugs,
Marsha

Here at TW, we always need to focus on the greater good. Trannyweb saves lives and gives people to opportunity to learn to live one more like the one they always wanted. At least, they get acceptance and some peace about themselves. When an individual's disruptive behavior threatens to chase away the fragile people, who come here WANTING help, that individual needs to be removed, despite the obvious need they have for help. We are not equipped to give that kind of help and they may not want it. Others do, many more than the few individuals who create chaos.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." -Spock (Vulcan philosophy)

Summum Bonum. (Earth philosophy)

Marsha, hon--

"Now realize I said if they are here to disrupt or intentionally cause trouble then they don't belong here, but if we keep out those with differing opinions are we not doing the same thing as some of the churches and other TG haters. Would we not be preaching to the choir. And if we do that, how do you ever expect people to change and understand us better?"

By george, you got my point! There's hope for you yet.

Wendy--

E Pluribus Unum. (From Many, One.)

Everyone else:
We can speak as one voice, if/when we choose to. That doesn't mean we can't disagree; it does mean we have to get along. Many of you know me well enough to know I've long felt we'd go much further if we can agree on certain issues and quit splitting hairs over minor stuff.

luv n' hugs,

Mina

Mina, I just felt your first comment emphasized running others off because of their opinion and my point was they were run off not because of their opinion but because of the disruption they caused. I'm glad we can agree that differing opinions should be allowed to be expressed.
Hugs,
Marsha

wonder what's happened to my contribution-censorship or what(chuckle)-xxxx-Nina

What's happening here-that's twice I've been censored!Forgive me if there's been some kind of glitch,but one wonders!xxNina

Hi Nina,

Your point is well taken.

Back in the late 1980's I had a co-worker who I thought was a friend. She was openly Lesbian and we used to joke about being interested in the same girls in our workplace. Thought for sure she was someone who accept my being TG.
Boy was I wrong. When I told her she went into an angry rant about how society treats women, that I had no idea what it was to be female, and I just wanted to push myself into a world where I didn't belong. I walked away and we never spoke again. (I was very lucky she didn't out me to the rest of the office.)

Some women and some gays don't feel we belong.

Best,
Melody

With Respect-and this isn't an ego-trip;what's happened to my replies to this interesting thread-have I been too controversial i'e;liberal(god forbid)or even left-wing?Nina Papillon

Nina, I'm not sure what you may be referring to. I'm seeing four posts by you to this thread, one detailed post and three questioning censorship. I hope your posts have not been swallowed up in the big abyss.
Hugs,
Marsha

And this is not one of my forums so I don't have the ability to hide or delete posts here, lol.

Marsh Ann-I think that the only abyss is between my ears! Am of an age that I find new technology constantly baffling me with its progress.They do tell me that there are such things as horseless carriages and flying machines in the offing-they'll never catch on!
Marsha I have now crossed you off my Hate List-A Happy New Year and may the Lord make his countenance to shine upon you-Blessings,Nina Papillon-xxxx-mwaaaa!!

Hugs Nina, I think you are right about the abyss and age, I also suffer from the same problem.
Hugs and thanks,
Marsha

God rest ye merry Marsha-tommorrow is my dancing day(s'ok-not going mad-just on upswing!)-12th night, so playing my Xmas CD'S-WASSAIL!WASSAIL!XXXX'n hugs-Nina P.

Melody,
If you read today's TRANNYWEB TRANSGENDER NEWS feed (whenever FFA posts it...I published it hours ago) you will read the obituary of one famous, lesbian feminist who indeed publicly denounced transsexuals as if they had no right to exist. She showed a total lack of understanding of what transsexuals are.

Maryanne,logically you are right that natural process is the best to lead a healthy life.Sex change is more of a psychological boost.But our inner urge to be really feminine and womanly could be achieved only by hormones and sex change.Whenever i go to a market place inspite of the fact that i am much better looking than many women,i always get a inferiority complex when i see their naturally soft face and feminine figure.To look a woman it is essential to have a larger hip and thicker thigh and a very soft face which could be achieved only through hormones and sex change.But yes one should have the desire to be a woman forever to go through the process.

What is interesting about saddo Jamison is that she spent 8 years as hetero woman wife before switching to lesbian...so if it's ok to change and suddenly call oneself a lesbian who was confused into being hetero why can't one of us change and suddenly call ourselves transsexuals who were confused into being males?

Rose,a good point and it looks like I've become a self-appointed 'Devil's Advocate' here but couldn't we be confusing 'Gender' and 'sexuality' here?Whilst regretting the intemperance of her outbursts I think some really interesting issues have been raised by Maryanne's starting this thread,Nina Papillon.

I don't know anything about Margaret Jamison, and don't particularly care to. However, despite the harshness of her tone, is she fundamentally wrong? Can you truly make a woman. Or is to believe so merely delusional. Does having your male genitalia removed really make you something you were not already. Is it not the mind, the pysche, our genetic structure, that makes us the people we are, not the surgeons knife. Suicide rates among transsexuals is higher than any other group in the transgender community. Why is this? Maybe, because we put too much faith in science to create a reality where none exists. For many post-op transsexuals it very quickly becomes Frankenstein reborn, and the number of those who wish to transition back again is growing all the time. Transgenderism is a reality, transsexualism is not. The path to happiness is to realise who you are and not what you can never be. So many people make that mistake, and it is so sad.
My personal experience of various websites is that there are none less tolerant than transgender ones. Strange when you think about it. Anyone who describes themselves as a something, whether it be by religious prefix or sexual persuasion will ultimately be a bigot.

Porscha-I so agree,Nina Papillon

Porscha, it is so nice to have you back adding your take on things in the forums. Here I am in the planning stages for having my surgery this December and I find myself very much agreeing with you. Can a woman be made? I imagine there are a few instances which it has worked out fine, but my belief is a woman is born, not made. So where does that leave me and other transsexuals. I have preached here for years that this is not fun and games, yet I have seen a handful progress from being evaluated to having surgery in less than two years. Typically they disappear from our view so what becomes of many of them is anyone's best guess. Thailand as of November 2009, began requiring letters from therapists and one year of RLE citing an increasing number of those regretting having irreversible SRS. I have had friends say that surgery is going to bring them the relationship they so desire. I try to be nice but my response is "Really?" I think their is a lot of excitement in the transgender world and being positive is important. However, like Porscha said, there is a reality in all this. Maybe to some extent political correctness has allowed transitioning to be too easy. And maybe worse is that it has become easy before society as a whole, even embraces us.

Another take on what Porscha and others here have said about the transgender community being one of the least tolerant is that as a group we had been made to feel we had to hide our behavior for so long and now that we have a forum for our voice maybe it is we feel we need to prove that we are genuine and reject anything said to the contrary. Of course individual opinions vary. For myself, I welcome the challenge of conversing or even battling with those of differing opinions, just as I had with my old church. But many find comfort in surrounding themselves with people of the same views, then it must be said those who reject other views are doing exactly the same thing as Margaret Jamison. If we don't acknowledge and listen to these people then how do you expect them to listen to us?

Rose had an interesting point about Margaret Jamison having been married earlier in her life. I'm not sure that matters on her view or not because more likely the marriage only reinforced her views men were evil and you can't say she didn't try.

Hugs,
Marsha