Sadly, the surgeon must have forgotten to remove the stupidity gland and implant some empathy.

Hugs...Joni Mari

What I find worrying is that this is far too common. There have been many examples here from post op girls acting very derisivly towards those who are only partway through the process, or don't even intend going the whole way. Thank goodness there are other post op ladies here who haven't forgotten what it was like to be 'stuck in the middle' and treat everyone, regardless of where they are, with equality and respect.

Nikki

Nikki, its these " Post Op" girls who think they're better than everyone else, that really annoys me with their self righteous attitudes. Do they not think back to when they were in exactly the same position?. As you say , not all post op girls in the chatroom are like that....lets hope the few ignorant ones drag the rest down with them


Lol xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Anna-Marie

I believe I have been in the chat room when this so-called "Post Op" was putting down some of the girls as well. I have a sneaking suspicion that this person is not what they state on their profile - and has a bias against TG's/CD/ and TV's.
Lets face it, there are a lot of Men and Women (ovarians) who feel threatened by our very existence.
When I meet this type of person, I often wonder if their own Inadequacies are the source of their hurtful behavior.
Doanna

Man in a lovely frock


!

So what?

I wonder how hurtful the woman who made this comment would find being called "A man with a fanny" or something similar? I'd imagine it would be quite awful, just like slapping down someone because they don't want to alter their body and the enjoy being feminine sometimes is horrible. Why do we have to be so nasty to one- another? We complain about being marginalised and discriminated against and yet we perpetuate it within our own community and seek continually to label people. Those transexuals who look down their noses at transvestites might like to concider that a tv is doing something they enjoy or find peace in, whereas some of us transsexuals feel the need to alter our genitals such that we are rendered sterile and have an artificial hole that needs maintenance to remain open, makes you wonder what we have to look down our noses at.

It is truly sad that someone who is "post-op" would not accept those of us still on our journey!!!
Judgement, after all, is something none of us want, need or desire. Acceptance is what we really desire.

Besides, being a woman is much more than just physical changes to our bodies.

Hugz,
MIchelleLynn

Go! Crissie Go., Always first of the mark to defend somones rights. See its the usual girls that have responded in support.
That comment is in my mind one of the worst and hurtful things anyone could come out with to somone who is going through the trauma of transitioning. If as they claim they are a post op, then that is even more crass and insulting, Forgetting the difficulties and coming to terms with their own circumstances, does'nt realy sound like somone who is genuinely a post-op,
Or it just goes to prove that surgery does not realy remove the man inside for some. Your supposed to be a woman before you get to that point, think and act like one and have an empathy for your sisters. I have only spoken to the person who this damnable slur was made to a couple of times but found her to be a real genuine lady.

Cassandra........ and I will add a grrrrrrrrrr as well

Thats my point exactly Cass. Whether this girl identifies as male ,female, inbetweenie, gay, lesbian, bi, cd, tv, ts or what ever other label we care to think up (I've even heard some girls call themselves Transbian which I thought was quite good). Who has the right to judge them? What about those of us who can't have genital surgery, are they "men"? and what about those who have reasons such as certain cancers to not be able to have hrt either, are they also men? And just say someone wishes a female life but have reason to not want to change their body, are they men? It is so easy to judge people after all it makes us feel better about ourselves to point out what we see as flaws in others. Perhaps the person who made these comments feels the need to laud it over those they see as inferior because maybe they haven't been accepted by family or friends or community.

It would seem that the person making those comments obviously relishes in other peoples misery or it is as simple as they are an asshole...

"It is so easy to judge people, after all it makes us feel better about ourselves to point out what we see as flaws in others. Perhaps the person who made these comments feels the need to laud it over those they see as inferior ..."
My thoughts entirely.

Not that I think there is anything wrong with men in frocks, but to someone who identifies as female, or transgender, it's a not a very nice thing to say.
xx

There is only one kind of Transsexual. There are different stages but if you are TS you are TS.

See article in today's TRANNYWEB TRANSGENDER NEWS feed (TTN):

http://blogs.villagevoice[...]-op.php

I hope it turns out that the person who made the original comments was just having a bad day or mood swings. Obviously it is hypocritical to make such comments when there was a time that person experienced the same stage of development. Here we are at an online site, few truly know anyone else let alone know anyone well enough to diagnose or categorize others here. Sure many of us do that, I even do at times, however I don't believe most mean it in an insulting manner. Expressing an opinion good or bad is one thing, intentionally insulting someone is uncalled for.

This thread has somewhat grown from the original topic and that is what led me to finally respond here, but I felt I had to first address the initial post. Wendy just added something about the "no pre-op transsexual" and I have to disagree with that idea. I feel you need to have clear definitions for legal purposes. Someone who self identifies as a mtf transsexual but is not fulltime should not have access to women's restrooms in my opinion. I believe that is societies fear that anyone who wants to call themselves a TS will start wandering into the women's restrooms and that is why churches and other groups continue to call pro TS laws "bathroom bills." And I have to agree. There needs to be a way to qualify transsexuals that are living fulltime so the "Man in the Frock" does not become an issue. All around the world people are required to take a driving test to obtain a driver's license to drive a vehicle, therefore I see it as being no different if a transsexual believes she should be treated as a woman and have access to women's amenities, then a license, test or whatever should be obtained.

This differs completely from discrimination issues in my opinion. I don't believe anyone should be discriminated against because of what they do in their personal lives as long as the activity is legal. There is nothing wrong with CD/TVs going out and having fun when they have the opportunity and really the same applies for transsexuals, however there are and should be limits in my opinion.

Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Marsha,

I'm going to have to disagree (big shock, eh?). I'm not a transsexual, never claimed to be, so I have no dog in this hunt, but...

"Man in a frock" is an insult - it's what the haters use against all TGs. To require some sort of test for being a "real TS" is just nuts. I've known CDs who are beautiful and totally passable. No one would think twice about them using the Lady's room as long as they were discrete. I've also know TSs, both pre- and post-op who couldn't pass if their life depended on it.

It comes down to taking a realistic evaluation of how well you present as female. If you do it well, great. If not, even a note from your gynecologist won't make the public any less afraid when you head for the Ladies.

Why should being "full time" make any difference at all? If a TS has a job that she cannot possibly go to en femme or she cannot for her own reasons come out to her family, does that make her somehow a second class TS? I'm very glad your family and your customers are accepting but that's not the case for everyone.

Best,
Melody

I think you missed every point I tried to make Melody. First of all, the "Man in a Frock" referred to what society thinks of us, not what I or anyone within our community should think of others here. I made it clear intentionally insulting someone is wrong.

Second, yes there should be some sort of test of certification that someone is living fulltime as the gender they were not born with. I am absolutely against "JUST ANYONE" getting away with putting on clothes of the other gender and expecting society to let them do as they please. Be realistic about this, this is not Utopia. There should be some expectation that the people in a given restroom belong there, you are trying to throw that entire concept out the window.

If a CD/TV feels they pass well enough to use a ladies restroom, have at it, but just because someone puts a dress on should not give them a free pass into the ladies room or locker room. If a facility makes their restrooms available to anyone TG, so be it.

As for your argument about maybe because of work they cannot be fulltime. My simple argument there is yes they are fulltime, but they are crossdressing for the sake of employment and the certification I talked about should be provided. Let alone, I already made it clear about any discrimination is wrong. No changes can be made to our status without discrimination protection first being in place.

And no where have I said there are any classes of TS, let alone TGs. It goes straight back to my analogy of driving a car. Not every wants to drive, not everyone should drive, but those that choose to, need to meet established requirements. You are espousing chaos, anarchy, and all that would do is open the doors up for us to be abused altogether.

Hugs,
Marsha

Oh, Marsha,

Don't think I misunderstood anything in your prior post.

Interesting concept that a TS who is not full time is cross dressing. They still are not, by definition, Full Time - do they get a fail on the TS test when they go in for their License for using the Lady's Room?

"Just Anyone" is another interesting concept, who makes the judgment one is a "Special One", the government? a panel of shrinks? you?

You didn't address my point about TSs who can't reasonably pass. Will they be denied your License?

No classes of TS? So not having your License is just like having one (so long as you never need to take a pee when you go out).

I'm a TV/CD and I'm not very passable at 6', 225lb and I avoid going dressed anywhere where the general public would clock me immediately. I know there are CDs, TSs and whatever else falls into the TG community who don't agree. They embarrass me, too. But I don't want to put restrictions on them, I just hope they get a clue before they get the living cr*p beaten out of them when they wander down the wrong alley.

Best,
Melody

The issue that really confuses bathroom rights is that in most places in the US it is NOT illegal for a man to use a womens' bathroom. If he walks in and uses it and it's empty, a cop can not charge him with a crime. The problems occur on private property where the "owner" of the business denies usage to TG/TS. There you are committing a crime if you refuse to obey the owner/operators wishes that you not use a particular bathroom (INCLUDING the male bathroom....they may not want liability for you getting beaten up en femme in the mens' room. I have used womens' bathrooms many times, usually single occupant but nevertheless.... I have never feared criminal action against me). I do not have my bookmarks at the moment but there is a site on bathroom rights that discusses this. Frankly, the only workable solution may end up being three "sex" bathrooms male/female/TG(or anyone) or lots of single occupancy bathrooms or the Unisex bathroom with secure individua,l more-private stalls. We are dealing with a deep seated cultural-psychological issue here that goes beyond mere bigotry. It will take time to change these feelings people have. Frankly, as a kid in school, I found mens' rooms a terrifying prospect and was assaulted verbally and physically in some. This is terrorism as deep as getting off the subway in South Central L.A. gang territory to use a local toilet....not gonna happen. In fact the latter is less scary than the former was as a child. I can empathize with women being fearful of us and understand why idiots would attack us in a men's room in transphobic anger. I can also deeply empathize with the need for anyone to use a bathroom in safety, including us.

You are still missing it Melody, but no problem. I did not say a TS that is not fulltime is a crossdresser. Let me try to clarify the situation I was trying to describe. A fulltime MTF transsexual can't find work because for whatever reason nobody will hire her. She finds that if she was a guy, she could get work, so for the sake of having a job she dresses as a guy, call it crossdressing if you want. But she has already transitioned. Now once again, that should not be an issue if discrimination laws were in place.

Next, I never said being able to pass should matter for a TS. I only added if a CD passes and wants to use a ladies room, have at it. Maybe I should have followed that with if someone complains there may be legal consequences.

Once again as for classes, we are all different. We have different homes, different cars, different lives. You are from the U.S. like myself and know this is not a communistic nation. Nothing says we all have to be alike. Just because I have something that someone else does not, does not make it a class situation.

I believe you see it as being unfair because we all fall under the transgender umbrella. And you believe If lets say I can do something, then you should have the same right. Gay drag queens fall under the transgender umbrella and they use the men's restrooms, maybe we should be required to follow their lead. Is that what you want?

Hugs,
Marsha

Marsha,
have you considered the fact that the person in question is just someone that revels in upsetting others & that is the answer plain & simple.....

good point Matt
Gracie

Matt, are you referring to the original point of this thread? If so, I fully agree with you because the comments were uncalled for and obviously made to upset others.
Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Marsha,

What I have a problem with is your saying, "yes there should be some sort of test of certification that someone is living fulltime as the gender they were not born with." Again, what does fulltime have to do with anything? And who is going to test and certify? And what does your certification entitle you to? (The difference between a TS and a CD is pretty much a matter degree in the mind, at least until actual body modification occurs and then some CDs do that as well.)

"I never said being able to pass should matter for a TS" Maybe you should have. There are TSs who can't pass, why should they be be treated differently than a CD who can't? This is pretty much an inside baseball sort of thing, the public don't have a clue there is a difference.

"you believe If lets say I can do something, then you should have the same right." Exactly what "right" or rights are you referring to? In a country where all men (in 2010, read persons) are created equal under God, who conferred them on the not "JUST ANYONE" elite? Sounds Orwellian to me. (Some animals are more equal than others.)

You've twice tried to make the analogy that your certification is equivalent to a driver's license. Driving is a privilege granted on the basis of proof of ability. People, especially in big cities, can live their whole lives without driving. The need to relieve oneself is a biological need that if not acted upon becomes an involuntary biological need. I personally don't have an issue with which restroom I use, but if I'm presenting as female in most circumstances I'll use the one matches my appearance.

"I did not say a TS that is not fulltime is a crossdresser." Really? "My simple argument is there is yes they are fulltime, but they are crossdressing for the sake of employment..." Very subjective in my view.

Marsha, I'm not attacking you personally, but I find some of the ideas you expressed elitist and undemocratic. (OMG, I just realized I'm arguing for individual rights while you are advocating a - presumably governmental - certification. The apocalypse is surely at hand...)

Best,
Melody

Melody, I'm lost at how to get through to you, you see what you want to see. I feel you are being a little ignorant in not recognizing that "transgender" is only an umbrella term and that there are significant differences amongst those who fall under the transgender umbrella. No, we should not all be treated the same way because we are not all the same! I am not saying anywhere that one is better than the other, only that we are different.

The idea of some sort of certification is simply to remove any legal issues regarding using gender specific facilities from the lives of those who truly live fulltime as the other gender. Passing has no place in this so I refuse to respond to one's ability to pass.

Gay drag queens/kings, CD/TVs and others that fall under the TG umbrella don't all have the same needs as a fulltime transsexual. To argue that you do is ridiculous. I am not saying you don't have rights or should not have rights, just that your needs are different. An example would be fulltime transsexuals need access to healthcare to take care of their transitional needs, CDs/TVs don't. Transsexuals that find it necessary to transition while employed should not fear losing their job. I already said CDs/TVs should not be discriminated against because of personal activities so that should not be an issue.

Your comment says it all, "Marsha, I'm not attacking you personally, but I find some of the ideas you expressed elitist and undemocratic. (OMG, I just realized I'm arguing for individual rights while you are advocating a - presumably governmental - certification. The apocalypse is surely at hand...) " LOL, I have no problem with that, I did not ask for a vote. I will be right up front with my thoughts on this but first let me say some of the people I most respect are CDs/TVs.

Now for my personal opinion, take it for what it is worth and many will dislike me for it, oh well. I think it is the CD/TVs that believe like you, in that you should have the same rights and do as you please which continues to cause society to be confused and prejudiced against us. Personally I think you are clueless what a fulltime TS really faces in their life. You probably have a good idea, but you don't know it all. I doubt anyone other than someone going through it really understands. No, you shouldn't have the same rights, period. And last, but not least, be thankful you are not TS.

Once again, the statement that started this thread should not have been said. TW should be like a club or something where anyone who wanders in is welcome. Nobody is better than the other, we are just different and we should celebrate our differences.

Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Marsha,

I'm probably more sympathetic to the special needs of TSs than most CDs. Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, in the 1970s, my partner was a post-op transsexual. (Did I have reservations that the relationship made me gay, yes at first, but she was so female that those fears quickly went away.) She was a few years older than me and I think she sort to took me under her wing. I watched helplessly when she couldn't get a decent job, got screwed over by the medical system that took her money but wouldn't help her with her health issues and when she suffered all sorts of humiliation and rejection. All I could do was be there for her.

She insisted I go to the lady's room with her when we went out and I was dressed. For safety or companionship or just to test me, I can't say for sure. Who really knows what goes through another person's mind?

I didn't know her before her transition, so I don't know what she went through then. When I first met her, through a mutual friend, she was completely female both mentally and physically.

At the time I was very confused about gender issues. I felt feminine to my core but I had a male body. She encouraged me to begin transitioning to being a female as she had. I very seriously considered going the transsexual route. Was that my life path?

At roughly the same time I was a partner in a custom motorcycle shop. My business partner, let's call him Bill, who as the machinist at the shop also did custom photographic equipment and gunsmithing. He wanted me to get involved with the gun culture. He even signed me up as a member of the National Rifle Association (yes, Marsha, liberal Melody was once a member of the NRA, not that she had any say in the matter.) We went from gunshop to gunshop looking for a Colt Detective .38 snubnose for me. When it came down to actually buying the gun, I realized I have an issue with anger and having a gun around was not a wise decision.

Likewise, I took a hard look at my life, my feelings and my future and wondered if I was really a transsexual. I found that I didn't have that, to use the hoary old cliche, belief that I was a woman trapped in a man's body. I was a very feminine male who dealt with it by expressing myself by being as feminine as I could be: clothes, makeup, jewelry et al.

I think Cyndi saw me as someone she could mentor through transition. When I decided it wasn't for me, we drifted apart. I think I was really a throwback to her old pre-op life. When I wasn't a project for her she got on with her life, married a man with children and really began her new life.

Maybe I'm just a "wannabe" TV/CD but I think I have more insight to TG issues than most.

Best,
Melody

PS, Please don't use terms like "ignorant" to describe someone who doesn't agree with you, it's not very ladylike.

Hugs Melody, I had gathered from many of your other posts that you have been involved in the TG community for some time now and I can admire that. I tried to use ignorant in a softer way, maybe stubborn would have been a better word. However it doesn't really change anything in my opinion. Maybe it is more because of the time. You watched a TS live her life back when there was little expectation society would as a whole accept us. I view it now as we are on the historic edge of being accepted into society. Notice I said on the edge. I feel we are being held back because of a few in the transgender community who continue to feed the old stereotypes. I believe things should be done in stages, therefore I believe those living fulltime should be given various protections first. I am not saying the others should have no protections, just not to the extent as someone who is now living a given way. I believe that will pave the way for others in the community in the near future. I believe right now there is too much demand on society to accept all or nothing and because they have not had enough time to better understand us, they choose nothing. So it is not about who is good or bad, it is about one group of people that happens to be different in a unique way. Just different, not better.
Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Marsha,

Stubborn works for me. That shoe fits. Here's the other half of the pair for you.

Best,
Melody

Works for me Melody. Take good care.
Hugs,
Marsha

Hi,

How disappointing is this thread! If people in the community cant show each other respect, what chance is there from the rest of the world! That said, I have received mostly respect from people in the real world so I can only imagine this was said by the rotten apple that spoils everyone’s day!

Much love
Penny
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