The ERA and GRA and the Churches

    • 1980 posts
    February 21, 2010 11:17 PM GMT
    Absolutely uncalled for, Julia.

    -Joni Mari
    • Moderator
    • 2358 posts
    February 21, 2010 1:49 PM GMT
    The word SEX refers to natal (or assigned gender under the 2004 act) Before people start
    saying Gender and sex are seperate issues.


    Overview of legislation

    The Sex Discrimination (Gender Reassignment) Regulations 1999
    The Gender Recognition Act 2004

    Legislation protecting the rights of transsexual people has evolved
    over the years in response to a much greater level of awareness and
    understanding of the issues that transsexual people face. There are
    two key pieces of legislation that you need to be aware of:
    Sex Discrimination (Gender Reassignment) Regulations 1999;
    Gender Recognition Act 2004.
    back to topThe Sex Discrimination (Gender Reassignment) Regulations
    1999
    The regulations were created in direct response to a number of high
    profile cases, that made it clear that the existing Sex
    Discrimination Act 1975 (SDA), did not provide enough protection for
    transsexual people. The 1999 regulations make it illegal to
    discriminate against anyone in employment or training who:
    is preparing to undergo gender reassignment;
    is currently undergoing gender reassignment;
    has already undergone gender reassignment.

    Gender reassignment is defined by the SDA as:
    a process which is taken under medical supervision for the purpose
    of reassigning a person's sex by changing physiological or other
    characteristics of sex, and includes any part of such a process

    The regulations allow for any reference to discrimination in
    employment against men or women in parts II and III of the SDA, to
    be treated as equally applicable to discrimination on gender
    reassignment grounds. However, the regulations only cover direct
    discrimination, which mainly includes harassment and victimisation.
    Additionally, there are exceptions to the provisions of the
    regulations, most notably where a person’s sex is classed as a
    ‘genuine occupational requirement’ for a job, although such
    instances are likely to be limited and difficult to prove.
    There are also a number of limited temporary exceptions that apply
    during the process of gender reassignment. This might include a
    situation where it is deemed unreasonable for someone undergoing the
    process of transition, to share accommodation with a person(s) of
    either sex, on the grounds of privacy and decency (e.g. working on
    board a ship where private accommodation is not provided).
    Legal protection is available from the time you inform your employer
    that you are intending to undergo gender reassignment. If, at this,
    or any later stage, you believe you have been the victim of
    discrimination by either your employer, or your colleagues you have
    a number of options:
    discuss the issue with your employer and remind them of their
    responsibilities to you under current regulations;
    if this doesn't work and you wish to take the matter further you
    can make a formal complaint to an employment tribunal.
    back to topThe Gender Recognition Act 2004
    The Gender Recognition Act came into force in April 2005. It allows
    transsexual people, for the first time, to apply for legal
    recognition, via the Gender Recognition Panel, of their new gender.
    Successful applicants will receive a gender recognition certificate
    (GRC) which means that they:
    acquire all the same rights and responsibilities associated with
    their gender;
    can marry a person of the opposite gender;
    are eligible for the state retirement pension (and other benefits)
    at the age appropriate to the new gender;
    can apply for a new birth certificate in their acquired name and
    gender.

    * The Act also amends the Sex Discrimination (Gender Reassignment)
    Regulations 1999 by ensuring that the only discrimination on the
    basis of gender reassignment that is lawful, is in cases where there
    are genuine religious reasons.


    Which was added as an exlusion clause to the GRA act, the discrimination at work act and the marriage act UK.
    giving the clergy the right to discriminate, refuse to conduct/solemnise marriages or employ people who have changed
    their gender within the terms of the GRA act, the same ammendments were made to the European Equal Treatment
    Directive/1976 The sex Discrimination Act 1975 and The Subsequent relevent sections to the Conditions of Matrimony
    Churches act.


    Additionally, although there is no specific allowance within the
    regulations in terms of time off for gender reassignment,
    transsexual people should be treated the same as anyone else deemed
    medically unfit for work.

    Equally, anyone diagnosed as suffering
    from gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder, is protected
    under the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 (DDA).


    Press for Change has produced helpful guidelines (Transsexual People
    in the Workplace: A Code of Practice), which cover various matters
    relating to employment including recruitment and medical treatment
    during employment.
    The Gender Equality Duty came into force in April 2007 requiring
    public authorities to promote gender equality and eliminate sex
    discrimination. The duty places responsibility on public authorities
    to show that they treat men and women fairly. The duty will cover
    employment practices such as recruitment and flexible working and,
    together with the Gender Recognition Act, will put further pressure
    on employers to be more explicit in their fair practice in regard to
    transsexual people.

    I will be adding other relevant points regarding the terms of reference, relating to Medical definitions of Gender dysphoria and the rights to treatment. Under various Health charters and the rights to services incorporated within the GRA 2004/7 act

    Cristine
    • Moderator
    • 2358 posts
    February 21, 2010 7:28 PM GMT
    Applying for a Gender Recognition Certificate

    The Gender Recognition Act sets out a procedure for applying to a Gender
    Recognition Panel for a Gender Recognition Certificate. You can apply if you
    are:

    at least 18 years of age;
    have or have had gender dysphoria;
    have fully lived in the acquired gender for at least two years; and
    intend to continue to live in your acquired gender for the rest of your life.
    There is a separate process where a person has changed gender under the law of
    a country or territory outside of the UK. Information is available from the
    Gender Recognition Panel. The fast track process for persons who have lived in
    the other gender for at least 6 years was discontinued from 3 April 2007.

    You must provide two medical reports. The first must be from a registered
    medical practitioner, or a chartered psychologist, either of whom must be
    practicing in the field of gender dysphoria. This report should confirm the
    diagnosis of gender dysphoria. The second report can be provided by any
    registered medical practitioner. At least one of the reports must give details
    of any treatment undergone or planned for the purposes of gender reassignment.
    If you have changed gender outside of the UK appropriate evidence of that change
    must be provided.

    You must also provide a statutory declaration stating :

    you meet the two year qualifying period;
    you are or are not married/in a civil partnership; and
    any other information required by the Secretary of State or the Panel.
    The Panel must issue a full recognition certificate if these requirements are
    met. If you are married/in a civil partnership, an interim certificate will be
    granted until the marriage is annulled or dissolved. If the Panel refuses the
    application, there is a right of appeal on points of law.

    Privacy

    The GRA safeguards the privacy of transsexuals by prohibiting the disclosure of
    information acquired in an official capacity relating to an application for a
    gender recognition certificate or about the gender history of a successful
    applicant. This would include disclosure by those handing such applications,
    medical staff, employers, civil servants, financial advisors or anyone else
    acting in the course of business. Of course disclosure is permitted if you have
    consented. Further disclosure is permitted for valid public policy reasons such
    as for the purposes of investigating or preventing a crime, for legal or medical
    purposes, or for the purposes of obtaining social security or pensions benefits
    and/or credit


    . Disclosure is also permitted for religious purposes in certain circumstances.

    • 129 posts
    February 21, 2010 9:50 PM GMT
    Cristine.
    I feel kinda sorry for you , you are very intelligent young and good looking but you live in a virtual world , i think you should get out more or just go out somewhere instead of sitting in front of a PC all day and night .
    All the info you put up is available on the internet or from G I Clinics ect i just can,t understand why its here too , still if it keeps you happy who am i ?.
    Gotta go meeting my friends in the pub .
    Get well soon , Julia .
    • Moderator
    • 2358 posts
    February 21, 2010 10:51 PM GMT
    Julia.

    I resent your comment,

    You know nothing of my life or circumstance, you have only been here 5 minutes.
    I work from home, during the day, I'm studying the relevant laws regarding the GRA, My Gf manages a pub and works most evenings. AND there are those in TW who find the information I post useful and relevant.

    Who had 25 days holidays last year with their girlfreind in Egypt in a luxury hotel . 10 days in Rhudesheim
    with their girlfreind in a Shloss staying with freinds. Who had lunch the week before last with a lord, who had lunch last week at Simpsons on the Strand with an emminent Proffessor at Law who helped draft the GRA 2004. Not counting the shopping and the other lunches out. MEEeeeeeeeeee

    Don't feel sorry for me.

    Cristine
    • 1017 posts
    February 22, 2010 12:41 AM GMT
    Hi Joni,

    I agree with you.

    Cristine certainly doesn't need me to defend her, but I'd like to say I depend on posts like hers to keep me informed about issues that I probably wouldn't have known about without these forums. Sometimes they relate directly to me and other times to my sisters around the world. Information is power. Sometimes I just quickly scan them if they don't directly affect me, other times I read them with intense interest. Point is they are an invaluable reference that can be recalled by searching the forums anytime.

    So, thank you to Cristine, Marsha, Wendy (both in the forums and newsfeed), and everyone else who puts out the effort to keep us up to date on news/laws that matter to the TG community.

    Best,
    Melody
    • 129 posts
    February 22, 2010 9:34 AM GMT
    Cristine.
    I work from home sometimes but not in a chat room! and you are correct i know nothing of you apart from your life seems to exsist here.
    All the laws to protect transgendered people are a complete waste of time if those people are going to either spend there lives on PCs or only go to transgender venues "that is segregation" we have the freedom to go where we wish to and untill everyone wakes up that and gets out the transgender community has,nt a hope in hell , its like everyone is in reverse .
    Julia .
    • 7 posts
    February 22, 2010 5:20 PM GMT
    Heyas!......Hmmmm?...how to respond?...While all opinions are valid from the person giving one, including myself, i often wonder about the tones in which those opinions are shared. i ask myself a few questions when I'm reading posts, something that would give me an indication as to who I'm dealing with to respond to. I too, am self-employed, which allows me inordinate amounts of time to be here on TW. I'm TS and a room moderator so i get the opportunity to meet some wonderful people, whereby i get an opportunity to learn something about them...What's my point then?...Like the chat room, the forums are a way of expressing oneself and one's opinion and over the last year and a half, I've gotten to know Cris quite well and I respect her opinions greatly. Cris, by no means, needs any defending but the right to express any opinion in a courteous and objective manner does. The only thing I'll add as my tuppence worth of thought is to tone down the rhetoric when someone actually makes an attempt to share some really pertinent info with the TW community. Not everyone in the TG community feels they have the freedom to go wherever they want, one of the reasons why they're here in the first place. It's about feeling free and safe enough to be "out" in their own way. Julia, I don't know you from Eve and I'll reserve any judgement based on that...I would, however, suggest keeping it more on the topic thread versus taking personal jabs at a fellow TW member...We all have something to learn, including myself and I appreciate those that are at least willing to share of their own personal and professional experiences, whether or not I agree with them...as the saying goes, to each their own, regards, Katie D.
    • 746 posts
    February 22, 2010 6:05 PM GMT
    Julia...

    I don't know you at all, but I do know Crissie and her contributions to so many others in here...she ALWAYS is there with good advice, a shoulder to lean on, an ear to speak with...
    What you did in commenting about her was a real low blow, so unlike what it needed in our community. I'm steaming upset but will temper my comments as to not start another flaming word barrage. Just totally uncalled for...you being an older woman, like myself, ought to know better...
    Enough said...you owe Crissie a SINCERE apology and ought to think twice before you jump another person again...

    Traci
    • 84 posts
    February 22, 2010 8:29 PM GMT
    I'm not generally interested in the forums but ive come to this one to defend someone i hold in high regard.

    Julia if you dont have anything positive to say why dont you just shut your gob.

    Cris is every bit as out there as it gets, as am I.
    • 1652 posts
    February 22, 2010 9:44 PM GMT
    Well I’m almost afraid to post anything lest I be accused of living in a virtual world by someone else who also happens to be a member of the same virtual community.
    Almost, but not quite…
    I’ve seen this comment before; “I’m out there living my life while you are just hiding in the shadow of your computer screen”.
    This comment is right up there with, “I’m a woman and you’re just a man in a frock”.
    Transference perhaps? Over-compensation?

    We all have lives, Julia; non-virtual lives, out there in the real world. All the full-timers amongst us go out every day, and none of them exclusively visit transgender venues, some of us never go to transgender venues at all. Full-time TS’s don’t spend their lives in their bedrooms on their computers, occasionally making furtive visits to anonymous tranny clubs, else what would be the point of transitioning? We transition so we can be a part of the real world, as our real selves. What we post on the internet has no bearing on what we do, or how much time we spend in “the real world”. To suggest that a prolific forum poster does not have a life in the real world is ludicrous and offensive.
    You, Julia, are not the only one who is “out there”. Far from it.
    Less of the insults, please?
    xx

    So, Crissy, it seems you’re now an agoraphobic man in a frock without a life in the real world. Some people have really got it in for you. Do you think perhaps there may be a soupcon of jealousy involved?
    • 871 posts
    February 22, 2010 10:13 PM GMT
    Hiya,

    One thing I learnt early on in this community when I was looking for validation and recognition for who I was, I realised, everyone else was pretty much in the same situation. So, I gave people recognition, validation and my respect, and you know what, I think I got a little back.

    Not a lot because I like to rebel too much lol, but a little

    Crissie, keep coming up with the good and interesting threads you create.

    Love
    Penny
    x

    • 1912 posts
    February 23, 2010 12:37 AM GMT
    The first time I read Julia's post I thought like most of you it was pretty rash. I think I first read, scratch that, looked at Cristine's post only a short time after she posted it and before there were any replies. Honestly I looked through it and was left wondering why Cris posted it. I happen to know that lately in other threads there has been some issue with the church trying to influence legislation so I figured this must have something to do with that.

    I believe Julia saw it as I first did and probably did not associate it with anything else. I'm sure Cris had good reasons for making the post but she didn't really explain why. I won't defend Julia's wording, even I have to say it came across wrong. But I believe some of the replies exceeded Julia's in rudeness.

    Hugs,
    Marsha
  • February 23, 2010 1:01 AM GMT
    I have probably known you longer than most on this website Cristine and therefore I know, when I say you do not need to worry about the mindless comments of a person who has not taken the trouble to know you, you will most likely tell me later that you are not remotely worried. I think what you wrote in this thread could be valuable to those who are not as good at research as yourself.
    • Moderator
    • 2358 posts
    February 23, 2010 8:53 AM GMT
    Marsha,

    Perhaps on reflection I should have made an introduction to this thread. After the lack of knowledge shown in the male rape thread,
    I started doing some research. Became interested in the law and how it affected our community. I was then introduced to
    Proffessor Andrew sharpe a lecurer in law and probably the leading expert in the UK on The SDA (Sex Descrimination Act) & the Gender Recognition Act 2004 that relates directly to Transgendered people in the UK.

    I proposed a legal forum here in TW, where people could pose questions and get answer on things they were concerned about or situations they found themselves in.

    I started this thread with opening passages to the Act to clarify the previous discussions about the churches and how the act
    affected us, as it was quite an enlightening topic at the time for most people here. Although I'm getting on top of most of it thanks to Proffessor Sharpe, sometimes I think I have bitten of more than I could chew, but after the good resposes I had to other threads and topics regarding rights and the law, I have perserveered. Its taken time, but have found relevant topics that
    most here in TW could not even imagine.

    To Julia,
    Even though I appear to be logged on to TW for long periods, I do not live in TW,, spending most of my time, working on the computer doing computer based accounting for my clients. Flitting backwards and forward checking responses and.making comments

    Poffessor Sharpe has introduced me to so much, giving me so many interesting leads.

    http://www.pfc.org.uk/node/322

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h[...]225.stm

    Here are a couple of links. the first I found unbelievable, that when the sexual offences act was ammended, post op M-F transexuals were overlooked within the sexual offences against the person act section one rape.

    Judgmental High court rulings set precedents that overule statutes, the law of the land and raise ammendments within the relevant acts.

    Not a lot of people know that..

    Although, thankyou for the support, basically there was no need to respond to this thread it was an information thread, if anyone has a question or a point to raise please do so, lets not make it a never ending support or condemnation thread.

    Cristine


    • 1912 posts
    February 23, 2010 12:51 PM GMT
    Cris, Excellent! I've always respected your opinions, not always agreeing, but I've always known you make an effort to know what you are talking about. I often have trouble expressing myself correctly, leaving too much for the reader to fill in with their twist on the topic. You have handled yourself well here.

    As for a Law forum, I believe my Politics forum should be changed to a "Law" forum. Politics tends to revolve around legislation, so it would be the perfect fit. Maybe the "Law and Politics" forum. I would love to share that with you. Katie, hint hint.

    Hugs,
    Marsha
    • 129 posts
    February 23, 2010 3:11 PM GMT
    Hi Cristine.
    I am making an open apoligy to you , i am truely sorry for my post i just could not understand why it was there .
    Me like many others maybe you too have been to hell to get this far, personaly i was hit over the head with a piece of 2x2 at my front door only just 2 months ago , because i suddenly moved it hit me over the top of my eye and i had blood running in my eyes and could not see , i slammed the door as i smelt petrol . This was an attack on me because i am TS .
    I can see why we need laws to protect us but they don,t , i carried on my life as usual as i hav,nt come this far to be put off by low life like them' i would rather die than revert to what i was.
    I realy do wish others would try more to stand up and be proud of being transgendered instead of hidding .
    I don,t belong here so i am going to delete my profile in a few days , i have paid to be here for 1 year and if Katie can do it somehow you are welcome to the remainder of my subscription.
    Once again i am sorry for any hurt i may have caused you .
    You take care and carry on doing what you believe in , if it helps one person then be proud .
    Bye Julia .
    • 1980 posts
    February 23, 2010 4:02 PM GMT
    Dear Julia-

    Please let me start by saying that you are welcome here, very welcome. I hope you'll reconsider your decision to leave. Just as I spoke up regarding your comment about Cristine, I want to speak up for you (though you certainly seem to be able to speak for yourself) and say that the personal comments directed at you were also wrong and uncalled for. While disagreements, even heated and vehement ones, are a part and parcel of the TW family at times, personal attacks are not and are discouraged.

    Julia, you are a part of the family here, if you choose to be. No one is asking that you leave, no one is saying that your opinions and point of view are not valued. This particular thread has wandered far afield from Cristine's original intent, which is unfortunate, but sometimes happens. I hope that everyone will now let it go, take a deep breath and go on from here.

    No matter what you choose to do, Julia, I personally wish you the best of luck on your journey. I feel awful about the physical assault you endured because of being TS, I hope your recovery has gone well for you.

    Hugs...Joni Mari
    • Moderator
    • 2358 posts
    February 23, 2010 4:08 PM GMT
    How do I start, Julia. Whilst it is true there are lots of closet TV' CD's TS's and even some of my now post op freinds have gone stealth. Everyone has reasons and fears. I won't go into my own traumas and the things I have done, needless to say I have had a rather hedonistic lifstyle. But not every one can get out and about for various reasons. Some have to maintain a former life through honour comitments. Some people dress to escape realism, they don't all dress soley to get a sexual kick. The thing that upset me more was not a personal thing, its that you automatically seemed to place me in a category, a sad one. Which sorta reflects on everyone who is'nt out and proud, through various reason. Perhaps you were rash in your assumption, but everyone has a place here in TW. you can still wave the flag in here. I have been out and about since I was 16, perhaps I need to put my feet up and slouch about a bit. Personally I think you should stay on at TW, perhaps you have somthing positive to offer. As to your offer, I Will be taking out full membership and paying for last year as well. You stay a member enjoy. But I do so admire your courage in not letting the bastards grind you down xxXxx But other laws and rights that should protect us all, Lots of people in here thought there was no such thing as Tranny Rape perse. fearing they would be reffered to as men. The instances/links quotes were some of the precedents that included the TG community into the SDA acts preceeding the GRA. People still ask if they would be called Mr in court if they did'nt have their GRC. Defference would be given to complainants, witnesses or accused if it was reasonably shown the were transitioning..

    To Marsha.

    I did propose a legal forum, but it was mutually agreed not to rush ahead when I pointed out the (Ah! but). scenarios, which keep cropping up, Neither of us are legally qualified to interpret the laws and sometimes what you post today has already been ammended by precedent the day before. So there might be liabilities involved for TW for misinformation if people were taking the advice as statement of up to date fact. As to my Swearing on my life originally when somone mentioned they had to get special dispensation from a Bishop to get married in church. My imediate reaction was no way, the ERA and the GRA, says etc etc. how wrong I was to make assumptions and give my own reactionary opinion.

    Cristine xxXxx

    PS, an OMG how interesting, or I never even figured that out, response to the Judgement in Reading Crown court, first link would be acceptable, lol Somthing I found realy interesting even the clinical arguments for the defence. Well bless the judge.




    • 746 posts
    February 23, 2010 5:24 PM GMT
    Awwwww Julia!!!

    That was very kind of you to step up to express your apology...you DO belong here...we are ALL in the same "boat" in one form or another...we ALL have valid points and life experiences that we can share with those in need...

    PLEASE take a deep breath, think of where else you are going to find so many willing to lend an ear, hold your hand, and even chew you out when needed, but reconsider your feelings that you do not belong here and STAY! Your input is valued...

    We are like one big happy dysfunctional family in here hun...we look out for each other where the world scorns us...we don't pass judgement on others but instead ALWAYS reach out when and where needed.

    I apologize to you for coming down on you so harshly...I am very happy to see you have responded in kind! NOW, stick around...PLEASE!!!

    Best wishes always...

    Traci xxxx
    • 2068 posts
    February 23, 2010 11:14 PM GMT
    Layla, you never seem to have anything good to say about anybody......so why not keep YOUR gob shut?



    Anna-Marie
    • 2017 posts
    February 24, 2010 3:01 PM GMT
    I'm not sure about politics and law sharing a forum, but that's only because anything with the 'P' word in it makes me groan and I just switch off, too many instances of corupt, lying and cheating politicians has led to that.

    Law, on the other hand, always grabs my attention as forewarned is forearmed etc so I always like to know where I stand on a particular issue that is related to me.

    I would be more in favour of a UK law forum and a US law forum, (giving that those two countries contain most of our members), as I think it is pointless arguing about US law if you don't live there, and vice versa. The debate quickly goes off track, as has happened here, and useful information can end up being 'lost' in the debate.

    Nikki
  • February 24, 2010 10:24 PM GMT
    Wow a 2x2 in the head...no wonder
    • Moderator
    • 2358 posts
    February 26, 2010 10:42 AM GMT
    Everyone,

    whilst I realy appreciate the support, and try and be objective, I'm the first to respond when somone is insulted like man in the frock. The last post here is the pits. To me thats shameful. The lady has apologised to me in public and privately. A
    sincere and heartfelt apology, Which has taken great courage and shows integrity. More than the people who insulted me openly in the chat room and not a word said since. I hope this is the end of it. I hope for everyones sake all the posts here,subsequent to my first two are deleted and we can get back to learning about our rights and the abnomalities in the laws that affect us. This is a virtual cyber world, Although I have met and shared moments with several members here, Julia does'nt know me from adam. She obviously felt bitter about her own experiences in being out and proud. Making what she thought was an inucous comment to my postings, thinking we should all be out and not closeted giving advice and commenting on life without having the real experience of living the life. My own experiences of out and proud might be frowned upon by quite a few.
    letting the side down, lol Thats the end to it.

    Cristine.

  • February 26, 2010 2:44 PM GMT
    Excuse me...my last post was sincere from the heart !!! .
    • Moderator
    • 2358 posts
    February 26, 2010 2:52 PM GMT
    Sorry Jennifer, I thought your post was in the same vein as the preceeding ones,, suggesting being hit with a lump of 2x2 was deserved, just goes to show unless somone makes themselves clear a lot can be read into a few words.

    Pleeeese can we now get back to normal,
    Cristine
  • February 26, 2010 5:35 PM GMT
    Gratefully accepted Christine.