This could get ugly, but it keeps coming back. We're all big girls so we should be able to deal with it like grown ups. I think we should try.

 

First things first. All of us are entitled to believe in anything we want. I dont care at all what you believe, it means nothing to me. I believe in freedom.

 

I am also an athiest. That doesn't mean I hate god. It means that I believe there is no god to hate. No more no less.

 

Its no secret that the big bad macho Abrahamic religions despise us. We should burn in hell or have our heads chopped off or whatever. They have a long list of suitable punishments for us. Its nothing new. If you are out, you are living with this nonsense every day. Big wow. 

 

I have one very simple question that I have asked some of our Christian sisters on GS. It goes like this - Are you "out" in your church? Do you go to church dressed as a woman? Does the congregation accept you? Do you actually go to church at all?

OK, thats more than one! But its all the same. Does your church actually know that you are trans, or do you keep it a secret from them, is the question.

 

Attacks on the LGBT community by religious leaders are well documented. The new popes' opening lines stopped me dead in my tracks. I was truly shocked. He was talking about me.

 

And every single last one of you here on this site. All of you. He doesnt hold you in very high regard I'm affraid.

 

We are an abomination blah de blah de blah..... You know the stuff only too well.

 

Needless to say any criticism of Mr Pope's encouraging words was met by complete outrage by our christian sisters. I still cant figure out how that works. It makes no sense at all to me. Its like helping the guy who is beating you up to beat you up. Over and over again. Why would anyone do that?

 

But something doesn't ring true. The usual platitudes about "stop attacking my religion" are wheeled out when these people really ought to be defending our community from attacks by their religion. But the best you'll get is "I will pray for you"

 

As far as I am concerned you might as well say "I'm going to sit on my arse and have a nice cup of tea and a cigarette" But thats just me and its only my opinion.

 

My words are not going to reach millions of people across the globe. But the heinous message of the pope and the likes of him do. The message is loud and clear. We are unnacceptable. We are the root of all evil. We must be stamped out. 

 

Be assured no one is stamping me out. Mark my words, I dont care what it says in any book, that is never going to happen.

 

So this obviously raises the question - what is it like to actually sit in the lions den in a church as a trans woman? How do you juggle what the teachings say with what you feel inside?

So far no one cares to answer this.

 

Why?

 

My feeling is that these girls dont actually go to church at all. Or if they do they go hiding as men.

The hypocrisy that would be staggering if that were the case, and I believe that IS the case.

 

Well I'm sorry ladies, until you are prepared to feel the wrath of your own congregation, in person, in a church of your choice, your arguments dont mean a thing. Zilch. Zero. Nada.

 

So once again I will ask you all. Do you go to church dressed in womens clothes? 

 

Its not difficult. A yes or no answer will suffice.

 

Your silence will be taken as a resounding "NO"

 

What you believe is no concern of mines. How it affects the lives of my brothers and sisters and me is.

 

May the force be with you!

 

Maggie 

As an agnostic, & christened Catholic. Plus having a brain & aware or events around me. I find Religion, (personally) The greatest source of conflict, on the planet.

As a closet transvestite. I go nowhere dressed as a girl. I do believe though, that if I was aiming for transition. That my attitude would follow Maggies. A 2000 year old fairy tale, serialized into a book to control the masses. should by now be sussed. Like Maggie, i believe in freedom of thought, expression, & personal liberties. It does seem to me though, that we are all failable, all complex, & all contradictory in how we live our lives. So believe what you will, behave in a manner that is true to yourself.

If you wanna spout religious belief, & be a transexual girl too. Why not be proud & take both worlds as one?

There are two churches in Minneapolis, Minnesota that are LGBT accepting. All God's Children, 3100 PARK AVE. S., Minneapolis, MN 55407. Living Table UCC, 4001 38th Ave S Minneapolis, MN 55406. The Transgender Day of Rememberance will be held at Living Table UCC on November 20, 2013.

This post was edited by Former Member at July 24, 2013 10:38 PM BST

Hi Maggie

 

 I have no difficulty at all in answering your 4 questions in 1. Just before i came out my wife and i decided to move on from the church we were attending and found a new church which we thought we would be happy to attend.When i started my RLE a couple of months later we decided the best option would be to be up front about my gender change and so we met with the Pastor and explained the situation  regarding my gender change and that if i was to carry on attending church i would be coming as a female and dressed appropiately.His initial response was encouraging as he thought this could if handled properly be a positive experience for the church to move on to a more enlightened and inclusive approach to serving the LGBT community.He would however have to talk to the church leadership before making a decision as the congregation was of mixed nationalities so some may not be comfortable with the situation. During this time i was unable to attend church as i was already living full time female and had started RLE.We met a month later and unfortunately the church leadership was not as positive or enlightened as he was and were not happy for me to attend as a female.They thought that while some members of the congregation would have have no objections most would be uncomfortable and they did not want a split congregation.There is of course no mention of transgender /transexual people in the Bible so they were unable to find any guidance from there but decided because there was no mention of it then it was not biblical and therefore they could  offer no support to me or what i was doing.They also thought that my wife should not encourage me either.What really annoyed me was the fact that they said i would be a bad influence on the youth of the church.I never found out quite what they meant by that remark as i am still extremely cross about it and do not want to confront anyone yet as i fear i would say something which would bring me down or below their level and i wish to cling to the moral and christian ground.I suspect however that they think i might try to influence the youth of the church to question their gender or sexuality.I am saddened by the hyprocisy of some of these people who call themselves christian but fail completely to put into practice Christ teaching of love and compassion and claim that their church is an open door.

I have as yet not found a suitable church to attend but i am a cyber member of the MCC church in Manchester which caters for the LGBT community but is open for anyone to attend.

  I hope this answers your initial question and i am happy to further discuss the issue with you.

 

Emma

There is something in Leviticus about wearing the clothing of the opposite gender Emma.
I am very sad to hear of your experience with your church. Alas I am not in the least surprised.
My whole point is how can religious people in the trans community continually condone this kind of nastiness. Why no solidarity when the pope announces to the entire planet that we are an evil abomination? It's no exaggeration that somewhere along the line this will cost lives. You know that don't you?
We have to stand in solidarity against these morons. It is our only hope.
I was at a funeral recently. Boy oh boy was that preacher pleased to see me! Haha! I loved every second of it.
To be honest with you, my area of London is crammed with churches. I am surrounded by them. It worries me. One if these days it's going to go very badly for me. It's only a matter of time.
I won't be turning the other cheek.

I am at once shocked and entirely unsurprised by Emma's dealings with her church leaders, who apparently have the decision making skills of a group of headless chickens. 
They: "decided because there was no mention of it then it was not biblical and therefore they could offer no support to me or what i was doing..."
I mean Jesus Christ (woops), playing the synthesiser for a living is "not biblical" either, am I to be eternally damned for that too? 
There are a lot of things relevant today that are not mentioned in the bible. Trying to rule people's lives on the basis of ancient texts written by men thousands of years ago is perhaps the essential problem with religion, that and a belief in a supernatural being who somehow created himself and the entire universe of course...
Presumably our god-believing sisters here do not share the views of the pope and other church leaders who say TG's are an abomination. I would hope at least that TG's feel they should be allowed to practise their faith in accordance with their own beliefs, ie what they think that god feels about them, rather than what the church tells them what god thinks of them.
No-one is ever going to agree on religion, not even within one single, smalltown church. The whole concept of religion is a farce. It's a ridiculous way to live your life. I share Maggie's bemusement that so many sisters who are held in such disregard by their churches, still follow their leaders. 
As Daisy put it, the greatest source of conflict on the planet. That is the truth of religion.
As far as I'm concerned, churches should have a sign above their doors:
"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here."
 
Lucy Diamond
Loving, moral, decent human being. (But steals the occasional quote from Dante).
xx

Well said Lucy!

 

Be careful with that synth girl! I have it on good authority that 16 bars of ELP practically guarantees eternal damnation! 

 

PS, Ive been talking with a girl from a band called Kinky Minx who played Sparkle this year. Shouldnt be too hard to get the gig up there. Shes a very nice girl too, and a tasty guitar player.

 

Maggie MacDonald

Deviant abomination ; )) 

 

When the going gets tough, the weird turn pro!  HST. xx

Apologies ladies, its not Leviticus, Deuteronomy 22 vs 5 and it goes like this.

 

⁵ The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so areabomination unto the LORD thy God.

 

To all those who believe this drivel or support those who do.

 

What the **** are you doing on gender society?

 

Presumably Deuteronomy 22 vs 5 only applies to cross-dressers. I mean, I believe I'm a woman wearing women's clothes. What does the bible say about people who change their sex to match the gender which god imprinted on them?
Probably nothing, yet many will claim the bible says one thing or another, and that therefore gives them the right to damn us, "forgive" us, or maybe even accpet us. The bible is a vague, contradictory, meandering load of nonsensical stories, made up by men and interpreted by men to suit their own prejudices. Farcical. 
xx

Ha ha! You don't get off that easily Lucy! They've got you bang to rights for wearing trousers!
See you in hell! Xx

Yes, but they're women's trousers not men's trousers Maggie.  OK Lucy, reprieve from Hell LOL

Note to Lucy:  Just make sure that they are not a cotton/polyester or other two fibres mix, or you will go to Hell anyway (Lev 19:19 ).

This post was edited by Former Member at July 25, 2013 9:37 PM BST

Maggie perhaps our discussions on the Blog could be incorporated into this thread. What about it Katiie ? I have no intentions of commenting further except to quote the second most important commandment  "Love your neighbour as yourself" - Leviticus, irrespective of how your neighbour treats you There are also modern English editions of the bible LOL

emma simpson said:

Hi Maggie

 

 I have no difficulty at all in answering your 4 questions in 1. Just before i came out my wife and i decided to move on from the church we were attending and found a new church which we thought we would be happy to attend.When i started my RLE a couple of months later we decided the best option would be to be up front about my gender change and so we met with the Pastor and explained the situation  regarding my gender change and that if i was to carry on attending church i would be coming as a female and dressed appropiately.His initial response was encouraging as he thought this could if handled properly be a positive experience for the church to move on to a more enlightened and inclusive approach to serving the LGBT community.He would however have to talk to the church leadership before making a decision as the congregation was of mixed nationalities so some may not be comfortable with the situation. During this time i was unable to attend church as i was already living full time female and had started RLE.We met a month later and unfortunately the church leadership was not as positive or enlightened as he was and were not happy for me to attend as a female.They thought that while some members of the congregation would have have no objections most would be uncomfortable and they did not want a split congregation.There is of course no mention of transgender /transexual people in the Bible so they were unable to find any guidance from there but decided because there was no mention of it then it was not biblical and therefore they could  offer no support to me or what i was doing.They also thought that my wife should not encourage me either.What really annoyed me was the fact that they said i would be a bad influence on the youth of the church.I never found out quite what they meant by that remark as i am still extremely cross about it and do not want to confront anyone yet as i fear i would say something which would bring me down or below their level and i wish to cling to the moral and christian ground.I suspect however that they think i might try to influence the youth of the church to question their gender or sexuality.I am saddened by the hyprocisy of some of these people who call themselves christian but fail completely to put into practice Christ teaching of love and compassion and claim that their church is an open door.

I have as yet not found a suitable church to attend but i am a cyber member of the MCC church in Manchester which caters for the LGBT community but is open for anyone to attend.

  I hope this answers your initial question and i am happy to further discuss the issue with you.

 

Emma

Hi Emma

 

Well what are eunuchs ? You would have to consider them as ts whether by choice or not and somewhere in the New Testament it states a special place has been reserved for them provided they are considered worthy.  They must have been given something to replace the oestrogen. Maybe herbs LOL

This post was edited by Joanne Lee at July 26, 2013 5:35 AM BST

Lucy I have already told Maggie that the Law as contained in the Old Testament was for the ancient Israelies. In the NT Paul states the Law is for the circumcised (Jews) not Gentiles.

This post was edited by Joanne Lee at July 26, 2013 5:45 AM BST

Remember when  non believers criticize the believers have a bit of compassion for we are TS too. 

FWIW, you cannot condemn all churches and all Christians just because of the Pope or the leader of one crackpot church.  Many churches and many Christians are completely happy to accept and welcome us, they understand and support us.  Many TDOR services are held in churches with the blessing of those churches  Look at the full video of TRANS: The Movie for proof of this.

Before my op in the late 70's I used to regularly attend St. Ethelreda's Church  in Hatfield, which was in the diocese of St. Albans at the time when Robert Runcie was the bishop (he later went on to become the Archbishop of Canterbury, the head of the Church of England).  Just before my op, I spoke to the vicar of the church because I wanted to know if I would need to be confirmed again.  He was lovely about it and said that he would speak to Bishop Runcie about it to allay my fears, but he was sure that it would not be a problem.  Two weeks later he told me that he had met him and his answer was that because God loves us all equally, then there was no need and there was no need to for me to be reconfirmed as a woman.  God had created me this way and he loved me as I was.

To condemn all Albrahamaic religions for the actions of a minority of some of their members is like declaring war on all Muslims because of the actions of a few Jihadists or despising all Germans because of a few despotic Nazi's who were responsible for World War II.

By all means speak out and challenge the views of those who hate us for being us, but do not condemn every single Christian, Jew or Muslim because of that minority.

And there is the problem Joanne. Any criticism of excesses by the church is taken as a personal criticism of the believer.

Its more often taken as a critcism on the entire notion of faith. 

Do you remember when the latest new pope gave his speech? I'm sure you do. As far as the LGBT community are concerned it was utterly toxic. Pure poison. When people on this site rightly stood up and said "This is wrong!" that is exactly what happened.

The faithful took it as an attack on them personally and faith in general.

Lets be perfectly clear about this, what that man actually said was completely ignored by all of you.

You do know what he said dont you? Get on google and have a look if you don't.

In a nutshell he said we are all an evil abomination and his message went out to the whole world. Repeatedly.

Now heres a bizarre scenario. The people who criticised those hateful and dangerous words were actually defending YOU and other religious LGBT people, while the religious LGBT people took the criticism as an attack on them. Go figure.

Are we to say or do nothing when we are so viciously attacked for fear of upsetting you guys? What would you have us do?

What the pope actually unleashed in that speech will take decades to undo. Another generation of haters will take their cues from what was said that day. Be in no doubt this will cost lives somewhere along the line.

Do you think your man Jesus would have taken this lying down? Everthing I know about him tells me he would have mobilised his troops and headed straight to the Vatican for a fight. 

Once again I repeat, faith is not the issue. Attacks on the LGBT community by religious bodies is the issue.

Turning the other cheek and allowing these bodies to kick us around whenever they feel like it just isn't going to work.

If you guys are going to play the part of victim every time one of us non believers tries to defend ourselves from attacks from religious organisations, then you are just another part of the problem. You ask for compassion while showing none for the victims of these organisations. 

You are not the victim here Joanne, you really don't need to play that part. It does you no favours at all. We non believing transexuals have your interests at heart here too.

I dont recall criticising any jew christian or muslim Carol. I'm criticising what is done in their name by their leaders. 

Why is no one getting this.

Then by all means criticise the Pope personally or whoever it is that is attacking us Maggie, but your arguments contained such things as "Its no secret that the big bad macho Abrahamic religions despise us." etc and many of your comments are directed at "the church".  The church as such includes all it's members, not just its leaders and as you know, many church members and their leaders (bishops, priests, imams, rabbi's) are supportive towards us.

I am all for confronting and exposing bigotry wherever it exists, but let us not alienate those who already support us and work within these organisation by taking too broad a brush to condemn.

I think it's fairly obvious that Maggie is crticising those specific church leaders who condemn us, not the churches - members or leaders, who show understanding, tolerance and humanity. Some of the former justify their outrageous comments against us by claiming that their religion teaches such extreme views.
So no-one needs to get defensive here, decent people are not on trial. Hatred and intolerance based on feeble excuses of religious bigotry is what's being criticised.
At least that's what I'm reading.
The pope, amongst others, claim I have no right to exist, let alone be happy. I expect certain religious leaders in other countries would like to see me stoned to death. I'm with Maggie, we must speak out against this no matter what our religious views.
xx

They do despise us Carol. The tolerant ones are viewed as wacky and liberal by the mainstream and criticism of them by the likes of me is viewed as extreme and intolerant - even by people in the trans community.

Do you seriously think I'm some rabid hater Carol? Not a bit of it. I may think its all pie in the sky but I'm not going to hate you for it. And I'll say it again, every time this issue comes up, the religious people here stifle the debate by claiming to be victims. 

I think thats a little bit childish. It is also (conveniently?) missing the point by a very large margin.

Thank you Lucy! You can see what I'm getting at.

How many members on GS? 25,000? Its a lot anyway, put them all together and that would make a very loud voice indeed.

The bottom line is this. Not one of the religious people on GS are victims of abuse by other GS members no matter how much they claim to be victims. It is simply not true. How many victims of abuse by religious bodies are there on GS? Hundreds? Thousands? I'm one of them you know. They drugged and abused me when I was 11 years old.

This talk of christian compassion does strain credulity a bit if you ask me.

I know you are not a rabid hater Maggie, just pointing out that to condemn 'the church' or that 'bad Abramhamoic religions despise us' is like spraying a whole field of crops just to kill one weed in the middle.  As I said earlier, I am an aetheist, so it doesn't affect my own personal beliefs one iota.  Condemn those individuals who spread hate as they deserve the criticism, but don't crucify the church, or a religion, as whole.  Those who spout hate, and the mindless people who believe in their every word are the ones who need targetting.

As a member of the IAG for the Devon and Cornwall Police Authority, I mix with representatives from many different religious groups (who fight against religious based hate) and they condemn transphobia as much as we do

Again, if I may take up a point in your last message "This talk of christian compassion does strain credulity a bit if you ask me."  Many Christians are very compassionate, not only towards us, but to many other things too.  Many stand in the front line and will fight our cause against bigotry and transphobia.

This is taken from a message jewish girl I know sent. I've been trying to talk her out of taking her own life for weeks.

 

"…..has threatened me that if I divorce her I will never see my kids again and that her siblings her brothers mostly will lay their wrath upon me because it will devastate her parents and they will probably have a heart attack. I have a religious orthodox Jewish doctor that already sent me to a evil orthodox Jewish therapist that told me I have O.C.D., addictions to women's clothing, since I am not assertive enough as a result I am suppressing my energy which comes out with me ''crossdressing'', being jealous of pregnant women, crying out of jealousy when I see them, he also told me that I am not busy for enough hours a day and so these things pop into my head. At one point he told me to ''crossdress'' and get myself to feel all vulnerable and cute and then masturbation he also told me to find a job but not to waste anytime pursuing my interests in world news because it could end leading me to boredom. He gave me Prozac like tablets and then gave me some tablets somebody donated which makes a person sexuality motivated to be with their wife. (my sexuality I am not sorted either, I think I am a heterosexual woman…."

 

Vulnerable and cute? These doctors ought to facing charges. Its as simple as that.

 

This is happening now as we speak and the last time we spoke she was asking about overdoses. What it would take to kill her is what she wanted to know. I know everything there is to know about overdoses from my own dark days.

But it could have written a thousand years ago for all the compassion this halfwit rabbi has shown the girl. I am genuinely shocked by this.

I wish more than anything I could get up there and be there for her but she lives hundreds of miles away. But I am planning on getting there one way or another. These people do not scare me.

 

Turning the other cheek is not going to save this girls life. Nor are your silent prayers.

 

Why do we offer so much credibility to beliefs that treat women so badly? 

 

The time for making excuses for these people is over.

 

Surely we can agree on that much? xx

 

This post was edited by Former Member at July 26, 2013 2:52 PM BST

Very, very sadly, these things happen whether they are religious based or not Maggie.  Do you think that those who chose to try and humilate you from their car recently were motivated by hate based on their religious beliefs??  It was just sheer simple minded bigotry and bullying from how you described it.  We all have heard stories from trans people who have been thrown out by their families and driven to the point of suicide, purely out of bigotry, no religious beliefs were involved

 

All bigotry by individuals should be targetted and condemned, whether by atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Jews, Christians etc.

Sorry to go on about this Maggie, I just find it an interesting and stimulating discussion, we are both united against any form of hate and dare I say it, we are both singing from the same hymn sheet to a large extent lol.

I know we are Carol. I want us all to be able to talk about these things openly without people taking immediate offence simply because religion is the topic. I think people jump to the conclusion that any criticism of religion at all is an extremist view far too quickly, without really considering the wider issues. Specific issues or even well documented incidents are just brushed aside and and plastered over with glib comments like "I will pray for you" or "this is a tiny minority" That's a little paranoid if you ask me.
We have all heard stories like this and we will continue to hear them unless the ignorance and archaic tradition that causes them is robustly challenged. There is lite doubt in my mind that monster ortho-doctor is still at large and screwing up the lives of vulnerable and desperately confused people.
If it came down to hurting a few religious people's feelings or saving this poor girls life you know which side I would come down on. I would like to think that as trans people all of us, believers and non believers alike would stand firmly with the girl without hesitation. Surely our duty is to her in the here and now.

I was born and raised roman catholic, but do not participate in church. They have lost their way with reasonable thinking people. Is their a God, I do believe that but thats just me. Since I have no church, but I do enjoy Christmas midnite mass in my old hometown. Since being trans is who I am, and i could attend with my wife I would just dress appropriately and go, I don't really pass but if someone says anything, thats their problem. Christ Himself said "Blessed are ALL who come before me" and his biggest message was to love and care for one another. I dont think it would be a big deal. I get emotional there in church and being able to truly express myself would bring full circle the inner trauma we all face growing up trans. Like finally coming home the true me. 

 

Archbishop Desmond Tutu, famous for his role in ending Apartheid, has said that he would rather go to Hell if he discovered that God was homophobic.

Again, I say it is individuals that should be targetted, not organisations as such.  There are good people who will fight on our behalf and we shoud not alienate them by attacking their organisations, rather we should confront the attitudes of those who choose to hate based on their own prejudices.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/07/27/archbishop-desmond-tutu-i-would-rather-go-to-hell-than-worship-a-homophobic-god/

This post was edited by Former Member at July 29, 2013 2:40 PM BST