Forums Gender Society Public Forums General Forum
  • Topic: CNS Brain male feminisation

    Back To Topics
    (2 rates)
    • December 14, 2014 9:25 PM GMT
    • (Moderator)
      • Post(s)
        2,248
      • Thank(s)
        167
      • Thanked
        347
      • cR(s)
        209 0

      CNS Brain male feminisation

      1. Introduction The role of the androgen receptor in CNS masculinization or the absence of same in male feminisation

      The medial posterior region of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTMP) and the locus coeruleus (LC) show opposite patterns of sexual dimorphism. The BSTMP in males is greater in volume and number of neurons than in females (male N female) while in the LC, the opposite is true (female N male). To investigate the possible role of the androgen receptor (AR) in the masculinization of these two structures, males with the testicular feminization mutation (Tfm) were compared to their control littermate males. No differences were seen in the number of neurons of the BSTMP between Tfm and their control littermate males, while in the LC, Tfm males have a greater number of neurons than their control littermate males. These results show that the AR is involved in the control of neuron number in the LC but not in the BSTMP. Results based on the LC suggest that when females have a larger brain area than males, masculinization in males may be achieved through the AR, with androgens perhaps decreasing cell survival.

      Sex differences in the mammalian brain have two main characteristics: they often occur in neural circuits related
      to reproductive physiology and behavior and they are seen in two opposite morphological patterns In one
      pattern, males have greater volumes and/or number of neurons than females (male N female), while in the other, the opposite is true (female N male) Existing evidence suggest that gonadal androgens are involved in the development of sex differences in structures that are larger in males than in females,

       

       

      Cristine:- So is it safe to say the percentage difference between the number of neurons BSTMP M to F and F to male affect the degree of GID and could possible it

      result in dual gender identity when more or less balanced? with no predominate influence.

       

      from http://gendersociety.com/forums/topic/7790/synopsis-of-the-etiology-of-gend


      This post was edited by Cristine, Shye BL at January 23, 2015 8:14 PM GMT
      ____________________________________

      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • December 15, 2014 9:48 AM GMT
      • Post(s)
        178
      • Thank(s)
        23
      • Thanked
        98
      • cR(s)
        52 0

      Untitled title

      Not sure that it safe, simply because neuron  numbers in themselves may have no great significance, whereas neuron activity may do. Long way to go yet, I think.

    • December 15, 2014 10:24 AM GMT
    • (Moderator)
      • Post(s)
        2,248
      • Thank(s)
        167
      • Thanked
        347
      • cR(s)
        209 0

      Untitled title

      Amanda thank you for your comment, as I understand it neurons are  detectable if they are active and healthy or none functional so one would assume these tests were looking at fully functioning neurons trasmitting the electrical pulses that control our very being.    but yes a long way to go yet,

      ____________________________________

      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • January 25, 2015 2:54 PM GMT
    • (Moderator)
      • Post(s)
        2,248
      • Thank(s)
        167
      • Thanked
        347
      • cR(s)
        209 0

      Untitled title

      Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35

       

      The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. in fact in the examination of male to female transexuals the brain composition would suggest varying degrees  uf under masculisation vegring on the near total feminisation. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation

      This post was edited by Cristine, Shye BL at January 25, 2015 3:01 PM GMT
      ____________________________________

      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • January 25, 2015 3:07 PM GMT
    • (Moderator)
      • Post(s)
        2,248
      • Thank(s)
        167
      • Thanked
        347
      • cR(s)
        209 0

      Untitled title

      Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism. by Luders et al Neuroimage. 2009 Jul 15;46(4):904-7.
      We analyzed MRI data of 24 male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals not yet treated with cross-sex hormones in order to determine whether gray matter volumes in MTF transsexuals more closely resemble people who share their biological sex (30 control men), or people who share their gender identity (30 control women). Results revealed that regional gray matter variation in MTF transsexuals is more similar to the pattern found in men than in women. However, MTF transsexuals show a significantly larger volume of regional gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. These findings provide new evidence that transsexualism is associated with distinct cerebral pattern, which supports the assumption that brain anatomy plays a role in gender identity

      ____________________________________

      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • January 25, 2015 3:51 PM GMT
      • Post(s)
        178
      • Thank(s)
        23
      • Thanked
        98
      • cR(s)
        52 0

      Untitled title

      I don't doubt for one second that cerebral developement, or brain anatomy has a primary part to play.  However, I remain convinced that parental pressure and societal pressure both have a part in modifying the cognitive issues in dealing with what your brain presents you with as you develop.  If these pressures were not there, we would see much less pain, frustration angst and depression in people with gender dysphoria issues.  As tony Blair said "Education, education, education."

       

      That I is why I believe that gentle advocacy, and being open, will go a long way.

    • January 25, 2015 4:06 PM GMT
    • (Moderator)
      • Post(s)
        2,248
      • Thank(s)
        167
      • Thanked
        347
      • cR(s)
        209 0

      Untitled title

      I agree Amanda IF the correct support and help is given, as opposed to the circumstances poor Leelah found herself in.   In that instance demands to abide by social concepts and trying to convert the poor girl to something that was alien to her reasoning was fundementaly wrong.   The only cure for genuine Gender dysphoria is acceptance and fulfilling a personal need.   What I am trying to prove that in a lot of cases there is a biological and physical cause for GID.   As I myself was born with an abnormality that made me what I am.

      ____________________________________

      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • January 27, 2015 7:53 AM GMT
      • Post(s)
        178
      • Thank(s)
        23
      • Thanked
        98
      • cR(s)
        52 0

      Untitled title

      I'm with you there Crissy. In your case there was a distictly identifiable syndrome at work, was there not?

       

      I'm wondering about those who first wish to transition later in life - among others.

      This post was edited by Amanda Bruce at January 27, 2015 7:54 AM GMT
    • March 1, 2015 7:49 PM GMT
    • (Moderator)
      • Post(s)
        2,248
      • Thank(s)
        167
      • Thanked
        347
      • cR(s)
        209 0

      Untitled title

      The scientific literature has already come to a consensus on the existence of cognitive sex differences, especially with regard to spatial ability. Both neural/hormonal and social factors contribute to those differences. See Diane Halpern's "Sex Differences in Cognitive Abilities".

      Stereotypes, including gender stereotypes, are mostly accurate. So saying that some view or conclusion is a gender stereotype is not a real criticism. See Lee Jussim's "Social Perception and Social Reality: Why Accuracy Dominates Bias and Self-Fulfilling Prophecy".

      Finally, let's assume the real reason why women have bigger corpus callosums is that they have smaller brains. Does the relation between sex and corpus callosum size cease to exist? No. Women on average will still have larger corpus callosums and all the (presumed) behavioural/cognitive characteristics associated with it.

       

      If you look at the sexual dimorphism from an evolutionary perspective, this makes perfect sense. In early human societies, men went out to hunt while women stayed in the village (with very few exceptions).

      The traits that made men more successful were those that allowed them to be better hunters and warriors: so coordinated action, perception of environmental opportunities and dangers. For the women in the village, their success is more dependent on "politics" and relationships. Instead of organizing hunts, the successful woman is one who is well liked by people and use strong communication skills and wits to solve problems (and not braun since they will lose to the stronger males).

      Thus over time, as the traits that marks a successful man and woman differs, it makes sense that there should be sexual dimorphism in brain structures.

       

      Which in turn is a probable and logical cause for some brain structure difference in male to female transexuals.

      zubiaurre-brain-scans.jpg (91.94 Kb)
      This post was edited by Cristine, Shye BL at March 2, 2015 9:37 PM GMT
      ____________________________________

      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • March 1, 2015 8:16 PM GMT
    • Untitled title

      It makes perfect sense to me Crissie. A male to females brain structure has to be different. Even if you take the science out of it. A brain in a so called normal male will have no desire at-all to do anything that makes their male/masculine brain think of female activity's or female desires full stop. Males are very different creatures . The way they think is in most ways the opposite to a female. A male to female Transexuals brain is acting in the same way or as close as can be to the way a female thinks.

      It is logical .

       

      Take care xx

      This post was edited by Former Member at March 1, 2015 8:21 PM GMT
    • March 1, 2015 8:38 PM GMT
    • Untitled title

      And I will add . As for Leelah , she is just one of many before her and sadly still many to come. There is only one true cure and that is to just be yourself. Fighting it makes you unsociable and it is unhealthy and it messes with your head. Christian therapists and Leelahs parents may aswell have put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger.

    • March 1, 2015 9:22 PM GMT
      • Post(s)
        84
      • Thank(s)
        0
      • Thanked
        7
      • cR(s)
        2 0

      Untitled title

      ok howthis in terms that a person that was born with cognitive(thiers words)  short comings  could under stansd what is being said

    • March 1, 2015 9:51 PM GMT
    • (Moderator)
      • Post(s)
        2,248
      • Thank(s)
        167
      • Thanked
        347
      • cR(s)
        209 0

      Untitled title

      Michelle, genetic female brains are different to genetic male brains.    Some parts of a male brain is larger than a females and some parts of a females brains are larger than the males.    Its been shown through MRI scans that some transexual male to female brains have some of the characteristics of the natal female  brain.    The androgen receptors in the brain regulate the formation of the brain during the early stages of pregnancy, if the androgen receptor is not working properly then it can result in slight or major diferences in a male to to female transexual brain, perhaps causing those people to think more like a woman.

      This post was edited by Cristine, Shye BL at March 1, 2015 9:53 PM GMT
      ____________________________________

      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • March 1, 2015 9:54 PM GMT
      • Post(s)
        84
      • Thank(s)
        0
      • Thanked
        7
      • cR(s)
        2 0

      Untitled title

      hm mm could this be a generator of some one being bi gendered  or gender fluid as the new terms state.

    • March 1, 2015 10:04 PM GMT
    • (Moderator)
      • Post(s)
        2,248
      • Thank(s)
        167
      • Thanked
        347
      • cR(s)
        209 0

      Untitled title

      Thinking logically, if the differences were balanced, I suppose, yes it could lead to a dual gender identity.

      But this might not be the only answer, I had a brain scan, and the subject differences were considered to small to be of any major significance, inconclusive.    But there again I was born with Reifensteins syndrome, AIS, androgen insensativity syndrome, so although it affected my physical appearance, it was concluded that it had no major impact on how my brain was constructed.  

      This post was edited by Cristine, Shye BL at March 1, 2015 10:26 PM GMT
      ____________________________________

      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • March 1, 2015 10:16 PM GMT
      • Post(s)
        84
      • Thank(s)
        0
      • Thanked
        7
      • cR(s)
        2 0

      Untitled title

      woow ,thats waht tmy therapist wrote  in the letter to social services

      "duel Gender Indentity"

    • March 2, 2015 2:29 PM GMT
      • Post(s)
        138
      • Thank(s)
        23
      • Thanked
        47
      • cR(s)
        21 0

      Untitled title

      Its likely that there are multiple Brain development scenarios that result in Transgendered behaviour.For my Part I was Born with Cryptorchidism[non descending testicle] and was treated with injections and surgical operations when young. I may have been a DES son [Diethylstilbesterol] - as my mother had a number of miscarriages before I was born [1961]. Unfortunately my mother is now in her 80s and very very frail.I love her dearly, but you can understand why I am unlikely to investigate this further.-BTW I have never had a brain scan or genetic tests- but for the record my younger brother aged 50 ,just recently was diagnosed with severe Bipolar disorder,  in germany and is being researched into as apparently he has some enlarged part of the brain.

       

      Much as though Science knowledge goes forward , its Sad but true that many stick with the accepted opinion and expectation of the time. My era was just put up with it ,dont ask. Now at this time DES is no longer prescribed ,-many transgender people silently carry the ignorance of the Past

        It may be off little surprise to see that Transgender  MtF are different  when it is quite possible that you will be comparing   genetic to possibly non Genetic causation

    • March 2, 2015 6:20 PM GMT
    • Untitled title

      I do not doubt that modern drugs can affect an unborn child but Transexualism has been around since as far back as history was recorded. Go back thousands of years and it was there but there were no man made drugs.

      Diethylsticbestrol was extracted from coal as far as I can recall (Correct me if I am wrong). One of the crazy cravings pregnant mothers have is coal , that is no coincidence. (I did not Google that)

      Pregnant Apes and other animals find minerals in their habitat and the males watch the females sucking or licking those minerals. The males copy the females. It is logical to think that the females are finding a boost to their own Estrogen. So does that mean the males will turn transexual for copying them?.

      The main affect to DES children was on the genetic females. Mothers and daughers both suffered higher rates of breast cancer.

      We as humans still have a lot to learn! Well I do for one.

       

      Edit: Spell error.

      This post was edited by Former Member at March 2, 2015 6:22 PM GMT
    • March 2, 2015 8:18 PM GMT
    • (Moderator)
      • Post(s)
        2,248
      • Thank(s)
        167
      • Thanked
        347
      • cR(s)
        209 0

      Untitled title

      Michelle, I found this of interest, seems there have been many studies on this aspect of transgenerism. lol its ism's and ologies.

       

      'Alternating Gender Incongruity' Causes Rapid Shifts Of Gender, Scientist Claims

       

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/19/alternating-gender-incongruity_n_1438911.html

       

      and yes I was partially right, in a previous post, saying that if the differential from the norm was a balance it could cause this condition.

      This post was edited by Cristine, Shye BL at March 2, 2015 8:20 PM GMT
      ____________________________________

      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • March 2, 2015 9:43 PM GMT
      • Post(s)
        84
      • Thank(s)
        0
      • Thanked
        7
      • cR(s)
        2 0

      Untitled title

              ahhhhhhhh haaa! urekh a   Wir wussten, dass es etwas in deinem Kopf los                                    ve neu fere vas sumthing a brewing in der head

    • March 3, 2015 8:45 PM GMT
    • (Moderator)
      • Post(s)
        2,248
      • Thank(s)
        167
      • Thanked
        347
      • cR(s)
        209 0

      Untitled title

      Atypical Gender Development: a review Besser et al International Journal of Transgenderism 9(1): 29-44. 2006

      44. In sum, gender identity, whether consistent or inconsistent with other sex characteristics, may be understood to be “much less a matter of choice and much more a matter of biology” (Coolidge et al., 2000). The scientific evidence supports the paradigm that transsexualism is strongly associated with the neurodevelopment of the brain (Zhou et al., 1995; Kruijver et al., 2000). It is clear that the condition cannot necessarily be overcome by “consistent psychological socialisation as male or female from very early childhood” and it is not responsive to psychological or psychiatric treatments alone (Green, 1999). It is understood that during the fetal period the brain is potentially subject to the organising properties of sex hormones (Kruijver et al., 2000; 2001; 2002; 2003). In the case of transsexualism, these effects appear to be atypical, resulting in sex-reversal in the structure of the BSTc, and possibly other, as yet unidentified, loci (Kruijver, 2004). The etiological pathways leading to this inconsistent development almost certainly vary from individual to individual, so no single route is likely to be identified. Different genetic, hormonal and environmental factors, acting separately or in combination with each other, are likely to be involved in influencing the development of the psychological identification as male or female. Psychosocial factors and cultural mores are likely to impact on outcomes (Connolly, 2003).
      Gender Differences in Human Brain: A Review Z.F Zaidi The Open Anatomy Journal, 2010, 2, 37-55
      CONCLUSION The male and the female brains show anatomical, functional and biochemical differences in all stages of life. These differences begin early during development due to a combination of genetic and hormonal events and continue throughout the lifespan of an individual
      This post was edited by Cristine, Shye BL at March 3, 2015 9:28 PM GMT
      ____________________________________

      Cristine Jennifer Shye B.acc. BL (GS Admin) Tongue out

    • March 3, 2015 9:12 PM GMT
      • Post(s)
        84
      • Thank(s)
        0
      • Thanked
        7
      • cR(s)
        2 0

      Untitled title

      ok i will need to re-read this again /aybe with a dictionary at hand       and how discombobulating it is to me

      This post was edited by michelle/mitchell self at March 3, 2015 9:28 PM GMT

    Icon Legend and Forum Rights

  • Topic has replies
    Hot topic
    Topic unread
    Topic doesn't have any replies
    Closed topic
    BBCode  is opened
    HTML  is opened
    You don't have permission to post or reply a topic
    You don't have permission to edit posts
    You don't have permission to delete posts
    You don't have permission to approve new posts
    You don't have permission to make a thread sticky
    You don't have permission to close a thread
    You don't have permission to move a thread

Add Reputation

Do you want to add reputation for this user by this post?

or cancel