It will probably happen to all of us M2F and F2M people at a certain time point. You notice that you pass in every situation and every time, no matter what you wear or if you have make up or not. Normally passing has lost its significance or "kicks" already long before this. And possible non-passing or open situations you face with a heartbreaking smile. By the way, a nice warm smile is the best weapon against just anything.
A few days ago I talked with a ts woman, whos greatest wish was to be able to pass automatically at any given situation. She could not imagine any bigger happiness in her life. I said, dreams stay dreams only until they come true. Once passing is an everyday routine, you have lost one dream. Reaching goals may fill you with emptiness. Yet, hopefully not.

Laura

Perhaps it is a good thing we crave, so strongly, the things we want. It motivates us to gain them, even if, having achieved them, they seem less important due to being commonplace. Otherwise, who would ever face The Transition.

I would love to be in that situation 24/7 - going fully out. I have come to the point where any nervousness about doing certain feminine things, like shopping for clothes, has passed. I no longer care if anyone is looking at me while I browse through the skirts in the ladies' department. Nor do I care if I go buy pantyhose and the clerk clearly has a problem with it.

Furthermore, I don't care if I'm in public and have to adjust my bra strap, or if I hunch over and my panties show over the top of my pants. Granted, that last part is something I've always looked out for merely from a standpoint of not wanting to be tacky. But, hey, sometimes it happens.

Being out 24/7 is one thing and passing is another. Being full time out is the prerequisite for the latter, but not a guarantee. I can imagine it is a hell to be full time and not pass.
But just as being out 24/7 becomes a routine, so happens with passing. Before 100% passing there will be phases of 90% passing. Some people will stare at you until you learn to smile happily at them and not to care. And when you have learned not to bother, you notice that suddenly you pass in every situation. It is a self feeding process.

Laura

But surely there is some relation working the other way around ? I do not think I can pass, and so, if I dress more or less in the same casual style as most norwegian women - and that also means very conservative use of makeup - I will easily be taken for a man in many sistuations. It happened to me at the cinema a few days ago: One woman on the row in front of me referred to me as "he". Obviously I was not fullfilling the requirement stated by one headshrinker at the GID clinic: "everyone should see that you're a woman 24/7." Now, I guess, if I had been wearing a wig they would not have used that pronoun. I could also, of course, have waved an ID card at the woman and introduced myself. But no normal woman would do that.

The thrill of passing... seems to me this somehow mirrors the suspense of hiding - in the closet. There is a "thrill" in survival, I guess, but not much real happiness. But surreal, perhaps... Reminds me of a statement by Salvador Dali: "For me, death is everywhere, at all times - it's unbelievably thrilling - I feel immensely erotic."


Linda
Sabina

And Hell... it has it's circles, I guess. In my view the concept of hell and heaven mirrors the circles and squares of "society". A fitting description of the message I got over the last year: You're allowed a place on the outskirts of hell.

Linda
Sabina

Here in Scandinavia our women dress very neutrally, if not even in somewhat masculine mode. And that does really NOT help us in mixing in and passing. And at least here, if you dress in a skirt and wear earrings plus make up you might be taken for a) estonian b) russian c) hooker (sometimes combined with b) d) transvestite.

Laura

You certainly are right about that, Laura. This has crossed my mind too. Either I attract the wrong kind of attention or I'm easily perceived as a man - which is also wrong.

I have even been thinking that the way women are here is a problem for us in some other ways too. It's well known that Norway is an extremely genderdivided society when it comes to choice of occupations. And my guess is that this somehow compensates women for their lack of feminine expression on the weekdays. So, being a woman is very much an "inner thing" here. Which makes the requirements made by the GID clinic even more offending. It's almost as if they're demanding that we contradict the ways of the women we identify with. On the other hand... I'm not so sure the rather masculine style here is altogether voluntary. After all, a woman stepping out of the drab ranks could be put in the "easy" category. And GOD forbid...


Linda
Sabina

I'm well aware of the differences between being out and passing. With the way I look at the moment I wouldn't convince anyone. But I'm not trying to deceive. I just want to be, and be thought of, as Meredith. Having spent all my life on the outside I really stopped caring a long time ago what anyone thought of me. Except job interviewers, of course! I need work!

I get plenty of looks now when I buy something feminine. Granted, it's not the same as if I was to be in full dress. I'm sure that when I first start going out 24/7 I'll have to adjust. I know I'll have those initial fears that will need to be overcome. But I'm not going to know anything until I try.

Some process of adjustment... seems that is what the RLE is about - making us adjust to a rather traditional female role. I am, of course, trying to avoid it. Like what you're saying about finding a job, Meredith - I'm applying for a female position and if I want it I must do what I can to please the board of directors. I'm not too good at it.


Linda
Sabina

To me there is a difference between the definitions of “passing” and “blending in”. Personally, I think I usually blend in reasonably well, don’t attract many stares when I’m out, but when I get close enough people do read me. It’s not about voice, mannerisms, deportment etc, it’s about the shape of my face, and until I take the plunge and have surgery to disguise my male markers there’s not much I can do about that.
However, Laura imagines that it would be “hell to be full time and not pass”; maybe I imagined that too before I tried it, but it isn’t, really, it’s fine. Yes, I would rather pass, my goal is to be accepted as a normal woman, right now I feel I’m being accepted as a transsexual, which isn’t so bad actually, and is something that many of us may have to make do with. I’m sure it has its positive points. In this day and age people aren’t shocked and disgusted to meet transsexuals (ok some of you may have not found this to be the case, I’m speaking from my own experience). I find people want to talk to me, want to learn more about it all, they want to understand, and they are glad to have that chance. In short, they are pleased to meet me, and all I can do until I reach my goal of totally passing, if I ever do, is leave them with a good impression, show them that people like me are just normal people, maybe even quite nice!
I wouldn’t suggest that we should all take that attitude, it’s a personal thing, and to be honest I’ve surprised myself by doing all this. But if there is one thing that will help us all be better accepted by society it’s being seen in public, taking away the mystery, giving the chance for ordinary people to meet you first hand. People fear what they don’t know, what they don’t understand, or if they don’t fear it, they can only speculate as to what it’s all about. Living in stealth, passing as woman, won’t help anyone understand this any better, so I for one am proud to be able to go out and take away some of the mystery. But this is not my lifetime mission; though I see no reason for me to live in total stealth, I would like to be completely passable so I at least have that choice.
Whether we like it or not, the situation here at the moment is that the NHS will only prescribe us hormones after we have started the RLE, even then, hormones in most cases are not going to change your face sufficiently to allow you to pass in most situations. Even if you go privately you still need to do the RLE before you can get a referral for surgery. So we are between a rock and a hard place. Basically, if we want to change our life the way we know it needs to be changed, then we have to go out there, do our best, accept that most people will see us as transsexual, and just get on with it.
It’s not so bad though, although there may be certain issues to work through, avoiding them certainly won’t help. If you want it, do it, and be proud that you are doing it.
xx

Lucy,

Your post gives one a lot to think on. Going from hiding away, to sneaking out to going out as a TG trying to fool people as to what we are. We spent so long trying to pretend we were other than what we were. Yet, if we successfully hide as a "woman", aren't we still hiding. Won't we still be carrying that bit of fear of discovery and self-loathing because we are admitting that we have something to hide from the world. I think you are right. We should aim to "pass" but not to hide. Be the best we can but be ourselves and proud of it, or at least, not ashamed.

The strange thing is that my impression of ordinary people is much the same as yours, Lucy. The hell I'm being put through is caused by the "medical profession". All I really have asked for is the right to the full HRT - payed for by myself. But as things are here I cannot get full HRT - not even privately. My private - british - psychiatrist has no problem with accepting me as a woman. But he's not willing to give me a prescription for anything near a sufficient dose. It seems this is out of fear of the psychiatrists at the GID clinic.

And the last message I had from them - just before Christmas was that it would not help that I have changed my name and am living 24/7. I would still have to wait for a year - before the RLE. They say I have too many "personal problems". And they don't seem to care that my private therapist thinks otherwise. The private TG doctor I have been seeing acts much the same.

So, this means I'm left with living 24/7 without much hormone treatment at all - and with no idea if this will change. The mostly positive way I have been met by ordinary people does, of course, make me wonder what the hell is wrong with the doctors.

I had a very strong confirmation of this the last two days. Yesterday I talked to the psychologist supposed to help people like me at the unemployment office. He showed great understanding and was very constructive - actually made me believe something positive could come out of this workwise. But today I met the TG doctor and was entirely put down. The same story again: My "personal problems made him/her afraid" - and so there's renewed doubt if I will get full HRT. And then, what am I supposed to say ? That no doctor trusts me ? that I have a "ten year plan of perhaps becoming a woman" ?

If I were to put in print how I feel about the doctors supposed to help me I probably would have been arrested.


Linda
Sabina

Linda,

So sorry to hear all that but can relate all to well here in the USA.. Was 1997 almost ten years ago i was doing the same, getting the same reactions.. " My other problems wher a concern to them" well my other problems where because i was not getting what i needed or even conformation of it from the doctors and psyc... after being turned away over and over and not being taken seriously, i went into deprssion, started drinking... ( was soo not "ME" ) but the more the doctors and all rejected.. the more i went into my own "escape"...... So now am an alcoholic! ( By they're terms... shakes head...Sober 7 years now ) Never had withdrawl or anything when stopped.. but it took me geting to a very low before they took me serious! ( I don't recomment this to ANYONE as it's really not a solution ) .. now... yeah years later.. on HRT, with docs approving, and on my way.. depession and all is gone except day to day stuff... And am becoming me as i see me inside and out to match.. slowly.. but on the way...
I think persistance will always go along way.. don't step into the low i did, it didn't help much finacially or mentally, but if you really want it... it will happen! *hugs* even if takes time!

*hugs*

~Valerie xx

Thanks, Valerie, it's always encouraging to hear that we're not alone. Perhaps I should not say, but it also makes me think I'm right in wishing I could wipe these arrogant bastards off the face of the earth.

I cannot know excactly what kind of low you were in, but I know I'm low enough as it is. And drinking... well, I may not be an alcoholic. But I did not use to drink much at all. And it has changed. Right now I'm sitting here drinking alone.

The things these doctors has done to me... I'll never forget. And I see no excuse for their callous behaviour.

And the hypocritical attitude... When I'm meeting I'm dressed - even somewhat overdressed for a woman my age - and they're using my female name, asking curious questions - seemingly showing a positive interest. The TG doctor even had the nerve to tell me she/he liked me while at the same time waving his stop sign like some traffic warden spottting a drunk driver...

Well, I guess, I can't really expect them to confess their cowardly nature.
The psychologist at the unemployment office sort of confirmed that this is where those dogs may lie buried. I said to him: Of the "sunshine transition stories" I've heard there seems to be quite many doctors... And he said, spontaneously: Well, it could be about choosing a safe career. Which is what my father and grandfather used to say: Being a doctor is a safe carreer.

I can see that now.


Linda
Sabina

I would never have thought so, but now I'm convinced that killing dreams must be a subject at some of those medical schools. I can see no other explanation for their murderous behaviour.



Linda
Sabina

It seems quite obvious, by the way, that, according to Dante, a lot of doctors belongs in the eight circle of Hell - next to Satan:

# Ditch 1: Panderers and seducers, running forever in opposite directions, whipped by demons (Canto XVIII).
# Ditch 2: Flatterers, steeped in human excrement (Canto XVIII).
# Ditch 3: Those who committed simony, placed head-first in holes, flames burning on the soles of their feet (Canto XIX).
# Ditch 4: Sorcerers and false prophets, their heads put on their bodies backward, so they can only see what is behind them (Canto XX).
# Ditch 5: Corrupt politicians (barrators), trapped in a lake of burning pitch (Cantos XXI and XXII).
# Ditch 6: Hypocrites, made to wear brightly painted lead cloaks (Canto XXIII).
# Ditch 7: Thieves, chased by venomous snakes and who, after being bitten by the venomous snakes, turn into snakes themselves and chase the other thieves in turn (Cantos XXIV and XXV).
# Ditch 8: Fraudulent advisors, trapped in flames (Cantos XXVI and XXVII).
# Ditch 9: Sowers of discord, whose bodies are ripped apart, then healed, only to be attacked again. Dante chose to include Mohammed and his son-in-law Ali here. (Cantos XXVIII and XXIX).
# Ditch 10: Falsifiers, i.e. alchemists, counterfeiters, perjurers, and impersonators. Each group is punished by being afflicted with a different type of disease (Cantos XXIX and XXX).


Linda
Sabina

Oh, the bare thought of them... ending up where they truly belong.
I feel much better now

Linda
Sabina

Hmm... it seems I was more right than I could have imagined... these doctors are indeed false prophets.

In todays newspaper (ClassCombat) I read this article about a state employed doctor stopping a priest from blessing a room cursed by spirits of WWII prisoners worked to death.

An old man had requested help from a state employed priest. But when this doctor heard of it he talked to the social authorities of the county and they agreed that the priest should not "encourage the illusions" of the old man.

Now, the article was of a general nature. The journalist - a woman, of course - used, on the one hand, this sad story of an old man terrorized by a quite average state employed arrogant bastard - i.e. doctor - and on the other hand the curious fact that every "prescription" written by these arrogant bastards - doctors, that is - is marked with this curious little sign:


#


Now, what is that sign, really ? The journalist - a wise woman, of course - can tell us: It is a double cross. The doctors use of this sign goes way back to the middle ages - yes, to the days of the true prophet Dante Alighieri - and the latin name for this sign is:

In Nomine Dei

In the Name of God

With the help of God... but they are Godless, soulless and shameless men capable, even, of terrorizing the old and dying on their deathbed.

So, of course, the prophet was right. They belong in hell. And one day, I'm sure, they will be wiped off the face of the earth.


Blackbird

Linda
Sabina

And, while passing through Hell, a good thing it was for Auntie, that she had her Divine sense of Comedy.


- Oh My God ! I can't believe it ! She's got NO strings attached !


Linda
Sabina

hi Linda/Sabina

Interesting abuse of art to put the bad doctors in hell !

I do think you should just make your own path and follow it to the end, if necessary there are other ways of getting hormone therapy and even srs and so on. Its not preferable but cleary you r being blocked from having normal treatment for gender dysphoria, even a normal house doctor could at least try out a full hormone regime for 6 months or so see how it works out for you, at least it would handle your aggression to start on androcur

Its sad to see people from our community so mistreated and I wish you all the best in your life

love Tes

I think it is a personal issue as to whether the "thrill of passing" fades or disappear's.
We can give our thoughts about such feelings or views about passing,its importance to us on an individual basis.For all of us its often our own personal experiences that can either colour our views and determine how we react to "passing " or not. Also our own psychological make up internally in our heads will dictate all the important factors about how important passing is to us.
So bearing all the above in mind I can only speak from both personal experience and my own personal feelings about "passing" its importance or uninportance.
I personaly think too much is made about its importance. It is not either a big issue or of major importance to me.....What Living and working full time as my true inner self has done is set me free to act and be fully myself and not worry at all what others think about me. I have nothing to hide anymore from the world outside,I have no fears of being "discovered" and all the negative actions and behaviours that can breed or instill in me.
What does count to me more which is for me the true test of "passing" is not dependant upon my external appearance to others based on my looks. Of much more importantce and relevance is if I'am accepted as a women by other Genetic females.

Being accepted as one of the girls counts far more highly than that of any other criteria for me. being invited for girls nights out or in,invited to go shopping,joining in the gossip and being counted as one of them is far more rewarding than any compliments I may get on my appearance or dress sense etc (though always nice to get).
I have over the years tried to get accross to TV's who have contacted me asking about going out dressed enfemme. That the most crital and important part of "passing" is all about how you carry yourself, your body language,having confidence, head held up making eye contact not acting furtive.For me I have always felt 100% more confident being a woman than i ever did being a guy so possibly for me it was a natural state to be.

Working where I do being in the full public glare and eye I certainly cant be a wall flower. We have over 40,000 people a day pass through our station and often I'am interacting with the public by the hundreds.Being addressed as Madam,as miss ,hearing people say lets go ask that woman certainly feels good,But more gratifying is when women ask me where did you get that nail varnish,I love your nails,to me being able to go up to another woman and comment on her great shoes or coat or outfit hair style or whatever. That gives me the real satisfaction as they react to me as one women to another and I dont fear the reaction from them as if I am one creepy guy with some ulteria motive to the approach or comments made to them.

Like Lucy I get many people asking many questions and I am happy to answer them and hopefully educate more of the wider public and do my little bit to have a TS woman generally accepted by wider society,though I see this as a side benefit of my Job not a primary issue to or for me as I am there to do a Job but it has shown me both how far the society I live in has moved from 30 years ago.

So I guess I am trying to say the criteria for each of us may be different as to what constitutes as "Passing". Personally I think it would be unhealthy to get hung up on having everyone see you as female from appearance alone. I see many GG women who are uglier than I or less feminine,more masculine even in apperance.How many of them get hung up on being seen as a woman? very very few I suspect.They just get on with living.

That is my way of getting on. I get on with living my life dont care what others think or say to me behind my back etc. I know over time my facial features will change,just as long as the many women I know and yet to know carry on accepting me as one of them then that is good enough for me the rest is just superficial and relativly uniportant in the larger scheme of life.

It seems that no freedom can be found treading the path of illusion. If you lose the thrill that only freedom can bring then maybe it wasn't the dream you imagined it to be.

The thrill of passing, fades or goes away.

For me it has but life is just normal for me now.
I live and work in the public eye.
I am a checkout girl for ASDA I see maybe severl houndren or even thouusand people a week.
So for me to be fefured to as she, miss, love, flower, pettle is just the everyday thing.

But is that not wot us girls want, normal everyday life.

I remeber that when i was called miss or wotever appropriate female adress i use to smile and think about it and yes it was a trill, to finally be recognise for the ladie i am.

Butr ultimatly you stop noticing becuase it is an everyday occurance, but the former is wot builds our confidance into not expecting to be called anything else.

Lucy x

Makes sense to me Lucy. It is my opinion the sooner you reach the point you take the she and miss for granted, the easier transition would become. I am not out to the world but I now live pretty androgynously, the only difference being makeup and maybe shoes. Sometimes it catches me by surprise when a guy comes along side me then opens a door for me. I also find I don't watch other people nearly as much anymore to see their reaction to me. It sounds like you are doing well and I'm very happy for you.

Wishing you the best,
Marsha