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  • Topic: Body hair reduction?

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    • July 4, 2009 2:29 PM BST
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      In a recent thread, one of our members mentioned that hormones have not done much for her with emphasis on her body hair which really gets her down. I am fortunate to have little if any hair on my torso and modest hair on my legs and arms, but I do know others who fight the same battle she does. My best friend's doctor has her taking an expensive high dose of finasteride saying that should do it and it has done little if anything other than thin her pocketbook. Personally I don't know anyone with much success losing body hair just by hormone use so what I'm wondering here is has anyone had much success? Especially for those paying for medication or treatment themselves this could be an extremely expensive predicament.
      Hugs,
      Marsha
    • July 4, 2009 3:27 PM BST
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      So just to continue.... I buy 5mg Finasteride tablets and cut them into 4 and sure it cost money but I also don't have body hair to talk about anymore beside my legs. If this is due to Finasteride or Hormones I can't tell but changing from a "dressed monkey" to a "smooth snake" is just amazing.

      I think high doses of Finasteride does not help more then taking 1mg but then I'm not a doctor and I just know my own situation as I really hate body hair. It would been impossible for me to show off my breast if I had hair or had to use epilator now and then so I consider myself lucky because at least the chest and arm hair stress factors are out of the way.

      xxx Natalie
    • July 4, 2009 9:01 PM BST
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      Natalie, so are you saying while on hormones your body hair decreased? LIke I mentioned I never had chest hair so I couldn't say if hormones make a difference, just that a friend of mine is having no success reducing body hair with HRT. I am too lazy to quarter my 5mg finasteride so I just half it and since my insurance pays for it, it makes little difference to me. My friend is taking 10mg so that should give you an idea of how much she is spending on the stuff and she does not have any insurance.
      Hugs,
      Marsha
    • July 4, 2009 9:56 PM BST
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      Marsha, I never heard of TS’s taking 10mg Finasteride beside bodybuilders and against cancer??? That's 10x more than what I take so maybe it's just too much? and for sure it shrinks not only the prostate but also the wallet. I think even 2.5mg is a lot but I'm not a doctor so I can't tell. I get my 5mg and cut it in four and take 1mg/day and when I take my Progesterone I stop Finasteride because Progesterone is also a DHT blocker and maybe better then Finasteride? Progesterone is a competitive inhibitor of 5 alpha reductase so it has the potential to block production of dihydrotestosterone or DHT.

      You must also know you need to be on Finasteride for a while and count at least one year.

      If my body hair was lost due to Oestrogen, Finasteride or Progesterone, I don't know but for sure it's gone and could be the combination of all?

      xxx Natalie
    • July 5, 2009 3:47 AM BST
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      Tell me about it Natalie. The numbers I heard were more like .8mg was sufficient to handle the hair requirements of a TS. 5 mg is the dose for enlarged prostate and I question any doc suggesting a 10mg dose. Sadly my friend doesn't seem to care. She doesn't really have the money to squander but she says she doesn't care and doesn't want to know the details, yet she often complains about her body hair. I would quarter my 5mg tablets except they are narrow oval shaped and i'm to lazy to try and find a way to quarter them so I just cut them in half, plus my insurance pays for them.

      I'm not saying that over time HRT won't reduce body hair, I just don't know since I have little to reduce. And from what I am hearing from others it doesn't sound consistant for all the gals, sort of like breast size. Some develope, some don't.

      Hugs,
      Marsha
    • July 5, 2009 9:12 AM BST
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      Yes I know people on HRT that does not reduce body hair (much) nor develop breasts or having fat re-distribution for that sake, but sometimes people forget or just don't know how the hormones and receptors works as we must know that these hydrophilic hormone molecules bind to receptors on the surface of its target cells which is cells able to respond to the presence of the hormone. These receptors are transmembrane proteins and the binding of the hormone to its receptor initiates a sequence of intracellular signals.

      If this function does not take place or just partly take place, then what can you expect from hormones or what ever?

      Maybe I should write more about it but now I’m off for well over a week vacation so have a nice summer all of you.

      xxx Natalie
    • July 5, 2009 2:34 PM BST
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      Karen, as far as I know, you're not on hormones yet and when or if you get on them, you must still count at least a year before the body hair starts to be less and after two years I think (and hope) you will not have any big problems with it at all but you should really use epilator and not shave.

      For the hair on the back, I also had on my shoulders and back but that's all gone and it just went by itself as I never had anybody to remove it for me. So you still have hopes as I love my sexy lady hair free body... and I bet it’s even better than many GGs.

      Good luck and let July the 4th be the first "happy hair removals day"

      xxx Natalie
    • July 5, 2009 11:45 PM BST
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      I'm going to clarify my position on hormone dosages here because I know many who read this know I don't want dosing information in the posts. I understand at times it clarifies what is being said and I also include bits here and there myself. What I don't want to see is any suggesting that someone tries a certain dose nor do I want to see dosage recommendations to anyone asking what would be a good dose. Dosing suggestions should come from a doctor or a site that provides proper documentation.

      I feel all posts in this thread have followed these guidelines.

      Stephanie, 6mg estradiol is very common and is equivalent to two patches so it is interesting a doc would say that. Many doctors are very conservative and try and play it very safe with lower dose prescriptions. That is why lab tests are so important, who is to say a dose is low or high if the levels are not monitored.

      As for progestin, I hope you mean progesterone, the two are different and progestin tends to be used in womens birth control. Progesterone products such as Microgest are frequently used by transsexuals. Once again there are many who believe progesterone is not needed because a MTF has neither a uterus or developed milk glands in the breast.

      Hugs, I hope that isn't too confusing,
      Marsha
    • July 6, 2009 12:58 AM BST
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      LOL Lucy, I actually do agree with you for the most part. First I was clarifying that mentioning a dose is fine because it does put things into context. I just don't want one person playing doctor and telling someone what they should take. As for lab tests, you have me wrong on that. I haven't bothered having my E2 or T levels checked in over a year now. The labs I care about are the CBC and Liver Function Test. The liver function is the most important lab for MTF's on estrogen, especially if they are on oral estrogen. My lab tests are for the possible side effects of the medications I take, the stuff that kills people. The CBC checks your blood for numerous proteins that can indicate circulatory problems, heart disease. I self medicated for two years so believe me I can tell without labs if my hormone levels are right, I've done the hot flashes, mood swings, cramps, low energy and God knows what. I've been there done that and now I know it is not the results we are after I am concerned about, it is the possible negative side effects that can be prevented by simple lab tests.
      Lots of hugs always for you Lucy,
      Marsha
    • July 6, 2009 1:44 AM BST
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      I do believe early on it probably doesn't hurt to have your hormone levels checked. But you are right that even while on the same dose results can be all over the map when checking results over time. As I recall once I had 341pg and the next time it was 691pg when 275pg is considered plenty. But as I mentioned, I believe you should be keeping an eye on the adverse side effects. CBC stands for complete blood count which is gobs of tests, lol.

      As for people agreeing with me, is it me agreeing with them or them agreeing with me?

      Hugs,
      Marsha
    • July 7, 2009 12:40 PM BST
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      "Hormones haven't really worked for me..............."

      Perhaps what is needed here is to explain to would-be HRT consumers that the effect of hormones,particularly in breast development,depend very much on the presence of the necessary receptors in the relevant cells and their ability to react,or not,to the relevant hormones.Unfortunately,determining receptor status before starting HRT is not possible.This means that comparing dosages is,in many ways,a fairly meaningless academic exercise.

      Another way of looking at the statement quoted above is that the person in question is talking under the influence of testosterone with all the well-known resulting male obsessions with big breasts etc etc,and that they need to realise that the Playboy centrefold body is the exception rather than the rule...................


      Lynn
    • August 4, 2009 8:28 AM BST
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      Like most of us, I detest body hair and to my utmost to be rid of it. But recently, I had to return home briefly for a summer holiday; this meant the prospect of wearing short-sleeved shirts and shorts in the presence of those not used to seeing me having smooth legs and arms. Rather than thinking up excuses, I just let all my body hair grow back for a month prior to the holiday. Yuk!. But once the time came to get rid of it again I felt great. The results were great, especially on my breasts and legs: much smoother than shaving every few days. I suppose I'm just really stating the obvious: the longer you let your body hair grow before shaving the better the results. I used both an electric razor and a Gillette Mach 3 thingy to do the job.
    • August 5, 2009 4:33 AM BST
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      Nikki, like yourself, I have to keep body hair in check and removing is routine for me also; there are just the occasional (depressing) periods when I have to let it grow for the reason I mentioned earlier.

      Rae, I don't take my swimming seriously, and everyone who knows me well knows that is the case; so, I can't use this as a cover story. Maybe one could use the excuse that the body hair is causing a skin irritation and so has to be removed. I certainly couldn't use the excuse of being a body builder (even if I am in a certain sense of the word!).

      Best Regards
    • August 5, 2009 8:53 AM BST
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      An interesting discussion. I guess the one statement that has surprised me is:
      "Once again there are many who believe progesterone is not needed because a MTF has neither a uterus or developed milk glands in the breast. "
      I've read a number of articles that indicate that transsexuals in fact do develop milk glands and can even nurse. As a matter of fact, a Google search for "transsexuals + milk glands" pulls up numerous articles regarding this. Also, much of my reading, both from the medical side and from some of the girls, suggests that progesterone, while not necessarily contributing to breast size, appears to help produce a fuller, rounder breast.
    • August 5, 2009 1:05 PM BST
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      I don't think there is any question whether MtF have milk glands, just how developed they are. I just happen to be getting my annual mammogram today and my doctor said we have all the same structure. Doctors who know nothing about this tend to want to think it is gynecomastia with emphasis on fat tissue not breast tissue. Ignorance is bliss. Progesterone will probably be debated forever, personally I don't take progesterone and I am extremely happy with my development.
      Hugs,
      Marsha
    • August 5, 2009 1:33 PM BST
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      I can understand that. Our bodies are so different and our specific hormonal needs vary considerably from one to another. I am not using prog either, though might consider it later if there might be any benefit from it.

      Back on topic, I don't have a great deal of body hair, though there is enough to irritate me. I'm away from home and didn't bring my epilator. This was truly developed by a man who loves seeing women being tortured. Probably pulled wings off insects when he was a child. I'm told it gets easier after several uses. I hope so. In the meantime I use lotions to remove it. I detest shaving and the results are so short-term.
    • August 6, 2009 3:06 AM BST
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      Hi, I have read this thread with great interest. Hair is my bain! and for almost everyone I know too!

      I have a couple of topics for debate...

      #1 laser treatment.
      About a year ago I spent nearly £1000 on lasering my beard away. During treatment I was really impressed with the results and I felt like a new woman. However, 6 months later it appears to have all grown back. I'm very disappointed, however, I understand that one has to keep going with it. In the mean time, I heard that laser treatment is most effective after about a year on hormones or AAs, simply due to the notion that there is no longer any follicle reconstruction. How much truth is in that? What are other peoples experiences? Maybe if this is true we could help stop people from wasting their hard earned cash on laser treatment before any hormones or AA treatment is undertaken.

      #2 finasteride
      I'm happy to say that I have been on finasteride for 10 days now at 5mg a day. I feel that my body hair growth has slowed up and my skin has become very silky. I keep looking in the mirror to see if any new shoots are sprouting on my head lol but thats just me being silly lol. being a type 2 5-alpha reductase inhibitor, an aspect is it also inhibits the body from protecting itself from the naturally manufactured oestrogen or allows the body to process oestrogen (however you want to look at it lol) which is a fabby side affect. i swear my boobs have got bigger lol. my question is, considering it has had a profound affect on me in a week, how realistic is that? could it just be my imagination or a placebo effect? What are the expected timescales for affects and long term exposure? I've read a few clinical trial reports but they seem a bit wishy washy on the side affects because they concentrated on the primary objectives. in a 5 year study finasteride reduced prostate cancer by 30%, male pattern baldness some regrowth 48% and no further loss 42%, duno what happened to the other 10% lol.

      #3 trying to be realistic
      in trying to be realistic, keeping my body purged of 100% body hair 100% of the time, especially with the gorilla suit i have, just seemed a bit too unrealistic to me and would ultimately end in tears. so i opted to find solace in the thought that it would all get treated over time. i've often commented "you can tell im a tranny cos the beard and dress gives it away" lol but the sad fact is i have often gone round asda with a day or 2 stuble sporting a nice lippy and blouse. my experience has been positive on the whole in living in an enlightened age in society but it doesnt help the conflict with mind and body. it would be interesting to hear other people's stories on how they coped with life during the limbo period of starting living as a woman and reaching the point where ones body has lost the male attributes.

      much love
      penny
      xxx

    • August 6, 2009 6:22 AM BST
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      Gorilla suits!
      I'm not laughing, but but I think I felt the corners of my mouth move upwards just a little!

      Seriously though, we've all been there to one degree or another.

      I had Light-Sheer Laser, dozens of treatments, with some degree of success. Then there were several marathon sessions of electrolysis, complete clearings, up to five hours straight by two technicians. Now it's just a little light-duty maintenance now and then, by laser or electrolysis. I don't recall when in the hair removal process I began taking hormones. Most likely, early in the course of laser sessions.

      That was just the face, the body was easier.

      I had been on hormones for at least a year. (or maybe two years) I had my arms, stomach and chest done with a different type of laser: Alexandrite. (I never lasered my legs) Every five or six weeks, for about a year. Excellent results, I found it to be quite effective, virtually no regrowth. Before I began hormones or laser, I used to epilate from my toes to my neck (with the exception on the genital area). I still epilate my legs every two or three months. The hair on my legs used to be very substantial, now it's nearly non-existent. (It must be the hormones.)

      Before I scheduled SRS with Dr. Suporn, I was preparing my genital area by getting laser, pretty much a complete "deforestation". (Well, I didn't know who was going to doing my SRS. So I was trying to be thorough and prepared.) Since the laser tech I was going to, uses an Alexandrite laser, I thought that I would have results similar to what I experienced before. This was not to be. I quit getting the laser treatments "down below" about six months ago. There has been some regrowth, but it is thinner and finer; which I think will be very appropriate when everything is done.

      By the way, Dr. Suporn does not require that the genitals to be cleared of hair prior to surgery.

      I think people tend to believe (or want to believe) that popping a pill is going to fix their condition, whatever it is.
      Unfortunately, that rarely, if ever, happens.

      Also, there is a tendency to over-medicate. A single low-dose (81mg) aspirin taken daily has been shown to be quite effective in prevention of heart attack and stroke. So, it goes to reason; If one tiny pill is effective, then one or two of the "regular-size" (325mg) must be better... Better if you don't mind ringing in the ears; severe stomach pain; unusual bruising; etc.

      The short answer to the initial dilemma, laser and/or electrolysis, in conjunction with hormones and Finesteride, is probably the best answer to getting rid of body hair.



    • August 6, 2009 12:11 PM BST
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      Penny, I've read psychology reports somewhere that said something about seeing the results you are after only a few days on HRT. It is something the mind does but that doesn't mean that changes are not gradually happening. Finasteride tends to be a rather weak anti androgen but that might be all some people need so we can't discount what you are feeling.

      I had my laser treatments after I had been on hormones for 2 full years. Over an 18 month period I had 9 treatments on my face. After 3 I really began to see a big difference but around the 6th or 7th I noticed my upper lip getting darker again and a few dark hairs here and there. But the remaining treatments knocked those out and I haven't noticed anything since. Cross your fingers. But I do get $1 touchups guaranteed for life....................just hope they stay in business, lol.

      Nicole made a great point about over medicating using the aspirin example. I work with chemicals in the pest control business and the same thing happens using them. Using more can change the desired effect to the point of it not being effective.

      Hugs,
      Marsha
    • August 6, 2009 7:28 PM BST
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      Leaving the beard on one side for the moment,although not on hormones at the moment,my experience has been that using wax fairly regularly will both reduce the amount of body hair and make what hangs on in there finer.Luckily I've been spared the 'were you born or knitted?' class of hairiness but even so in the chest area things are down to isolated stragglers which are easy to deal with.On legs and arms the hair growth is generally finer as well as more sparse.All of this I've done myself.Admittedly,those of you with hairy backs will find it slightly difficult to treat yourselves.One thing I did notice when I stopped the hormones was that the backs of my hands became hairier than they had been before-an area which should not be ignored.I do occasionally shave legs and/or arms but generally I find that a fairly regular waxing is sufficient.OK,I also have the advantage of living in a country where slightly hairy arms,legs and armpits on women are not quite the social problem/disaster they are in other countries.

      I got rid of my beard with electrolysis-took a while-cultivated my pain threshold somewhat-but apart from some isolated stragglers,which have become much finer anyway,I can now venture forth without make-up.

      The only advantage I can see for shaving is that it's quick and painless...................

      Hormones slowed down my hair growth,which is probably what most experience.Everything else probably varies from individual to individual.


      Lynn

    • August 7, 2009 11:53 PM BST
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      Rae, I guess the answer would be yes with an asterisk. I believe reasonable dosages have been established and when those dosages don't appear to be doing the job, instead of taking more of everything, you should start wondering why you are not getting the desired changes and whether or not something else in your health is effecting the change. That is where doctors, endos, and lab tests become crucial. But your estradiol and testosterone levels are actually irrelevant if change is happening. What you want to accomplish is change with the least amount of medication. Remember we are after the side effects of these medications so it is important to be aware of "all" the possible effects of a medication before modifying a dose.
      Hugs,
      Marsha
    • August 8, 2009 2:20 AM BST
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      Lucy, probably not so much about the estradiol but instead the spiro's, finasterides, bicalutamides and some of the other medications taken by TS's are the ones that we tend to take for the side effects. But even the estradiols were not designed by the manufacturers for our use and therefore there are no manufacturer recommended dosages.

      I almost sensed a little surprise that you kind of agreed with me. I do agree with most of what you said with one caveat. You brought up the “Don’t self-medicate, go see an expert” and that is my preference. However, like you I fully believe you should research this stuff and be your own expert just as you said. I have self medicated, so yes, been there, done that. I did a lot of research which now I am able to work with my doctor to ensure I am progressing as desired. So I believe in both, you being an expert and also having a doctor. At least make sure someone knows what you are doing so if an emergency health issue comes up the medical personnel will know the medications you currently use so they can proceed as needed. Simply put Lucy, if it didn't matter, then why did you have to stop your hormones before your surgery? It does matter and whether your doctor helps you, agrees with you, or whatever, they need to know the medications you are taking.

      Here is a prime example why I will keep recommending a doctor. Last night here at TW, I was chatting with a TV that is self medicating and has no intention of transitioning. Basically trying to feminize. I won't scream right or wrong, it is her decision. She started telling me that she was going to get the pills to make facial hair go away. I said there isn't such a thing, I don't consider your vanaqa a hair removal pill. But I did say vanaqa is pretty expensive, $72 here in the states and insurance won't cover it. She said no, it is really cheap like $4 and went and got the name of it. I couldn't believe it when she said SPIRONOLACTONE. Yep, she got the idea from somewhere that spiro would remove her facial hair. Someone not knowing the proper use of spiro can cause themselves some serious harm. I think involving a doctor can prevent this type of total misinformation which could potentially have devastating effects. I love you to death Lucy, but sometimes I feel you just give some people too much credit. Yes if they did what you say they would likely be fine, the problem is they don't and won't. Yes, I prefer to stay on the safe side of things with no regrets.

      Lots of hugs,
      Marsha


      Lots of hugs,
      Marsha
    • August 8, 2009 3:30 AM BST
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      Hugs Lucy, It sounds like we actually agree, just have different ways of saying it. Hopefully between the two of us, others will get the message that it really is important to learn everything you can about this stuff. And for that matter, you never stop learning. As we have gone back and forth in this and other threads, I continue to learn more about you and clarify areas I did not understand. I do like the way you spelled things out here because I did feel you were too much of an advocate for self medding. But you have clarified that here and I do agree with you and I am glad to see that.
      Love,
      Marsha
    • August 8, 2009 10:47 AM BST
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      I am certainly not an expert, having read this thread with some considerable interest, But I do know, (a similie coming up,) if you put rocket fuel in a car engine, you do not get somwhere quicker, you just blow yourselves up. I have know girls that do medicate and they assume that if they double doses they will get there twice as quick. As Marsha and Lucy have advocated, , ignorance is not bliss.

      Cassandra Whitehead.

      There I have posted
    • August 8, 2009 12:39 PM BST
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      It is interesting where this thread has led after starting off really asking why my friend would need a dosage 10X the normal dosage for hair control. Actually I think it is great how this thread transpired with lots of participation. I think the consensus is you need to be realistic about your expectations and that is best done by learning as much about the medications you are taking, as Lucy brought up, be your own expert. I know my doctor listens to me and trusts me because of the research I have done in the past. He can prescribe me a much higher dosage which saves me money, knowing that I will quarter the tablet without concern that I will abuse the medication. Just this week I told him I refused to take premarin because of my concerns for the higher risks associated with it, so he changed my script to estradiol. BTW, the script was for supplementing my injections to mellow out the mood swings, who me, mood swings? lol. This is a journey, not a race.

      Rose, transgendercare.com does offer lots of great info and if you are comfortable seeing the numbers, so be it. As a general rule you know testosterone is in control when you have dry orgasms. E2, estradiol, levels are right when you are not low on energy, not having hot flashes and generally a consistent ache in the nipple area. It is kind of fun to see the numbers, but as Lucy pointed out they can easily be misinterpreted. As for testosterone numbers, I take bicalutamide which doesn't prevent production of testosterone like spiro, instead my casodex blocks and breaks down testosterone receptors so the testosterone produced is useless. As my doctor put it, the T numbers are completely useless when on casodex. A lot of this is really all about your comfort level and trust that you are being properly taken care of. The problem arises when you see someone who reacts in a desperate manner wanting to transition right now if not sooner. I believe we have all seen those people. I also think none of us are saying don't take hormones, instead we are saying, take them responsibly.

      Hugs and thank you to everyone who has participated in this thread,
      Marsha
    • August 8, 2009 2:42 PM BST
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      In a possibly vain attempt to drag this thread back onto topic................

      It seems to me that the lesson to be drawn is,when you start transitioning,rather than placing blind faith in HRT, to also start the hair removal process.Whichever method you use is a matter of personal preference and financial situation.From what I've read on other forums it would also appear that,contrary to what UK surgeons say,for SRS in the UK epilation of the genital area is essential if you don't want your new vagina turning into a furry grotto.


      Lynn
    • August 8, 2009 3:20 PM BST
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      Hi Lynn,
      Regarding your statement:
      "for SRS in the UK epilation of the genital area is essential if you don't want your new vagina turning into a furry grotto. " I'm not so sure that is true. Other than trimming. I haven't decided where I will have my SRS done and by whom. I am considering Dr. Suporn. I've noticed that he does not recommend electolysis or complete hair removal in the genital area. It's possible I misunderstood. You can google SRS + Suporn and check it out. His "hairless" results are fascinating. Others may advise differently and I am still researching. Hugs.
    • August 9, 2009 12:29 PM BST
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      Lucy

      Reading the appropriate postings on this topic on Rose's gives a rather different picture.There is certainly one girl there who went NHS and is now having serious and painful problems precisely because CX/NHS considered gental area epilation unnecessary.It would also seem that only now are UK SRS surgeons,and the NHS,grudgingly accepting that such a treatment pre-op might perhapsbe a good idea after all and that it will even be funded.
      It all seems to be down to the technique employed for SRS.The NHS is apparently still inverting the penis,unlike Suporn and his colleagues in Thailand.As you are well aware,Dr. Suporn & co use the scrotal skin ,from which they scrape the hair follicles during the operation.This is why the op in Thailand takes a little longer than in CX and also explains why they specifically request that you do not undergo epilation of the genital area pre-op.They are also of the opinion that pre-op epilation of the genital area damages the skin so much as to make it unusable.

      Lynn
    • August 10, 2009 7:53 PM BST
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      Rae, Rose's website is run by the girls and boys who bring you Repartee Magazine-you may have come across it in the UK.It doesn't cost anything to use their site-you just have to register.You may find it useful though since the TS forums there basically reflect the experiences of NHS users and other T-people in the UK in a way which TW does not.For example,you'll find there a much heftier discussion about the NHS and genital epilation than here.

      Katie:This is not meant to devalue TW!!


      ciao

      Lynn
    • March 18, 2010 1:51 AM GMT
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      Well i and my GF noticed that my body hair is changing.

      For example on my arms and legs they are nearly all white and fluffy now compared to the hard "cablelish" black hair.

      My face is a different story there is some reduction in growth speed and density but from this point not much.

      i take Premarin, Spirono and progestron (From chinese Companies)
    • March 18, 2010 5:32 AM GMT
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      Hi Selket. Welcome to The Gender Society. I enjoyed a holiday in your country last year. Re your regime,I would change from Premarin to another brand as premarin is no longer recommended in most countries.
    • March 18, 2010 9:18 AM GMT
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      thanks

      well premarin is the only one i can get around here. I know there are others but they are extremly hard to find. I already have to take a 3 hours busride to another city just to buy the premarin.

      And btw its not my country i just live here im originally from Europe.
    • March 27, 2010 8:13 PM GMT
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      For my 2 Canadian cents, I have noticed a nice reduction of body hair, especailly on my chest, arms a little less and legs not too sure yet. My face remains normal and did laser, now doing electro for those white hairs...lol yes I am getting old. I am on 2mg estro 3 times a day
      nothing else at this time. Dr. says perhaps Spiro but waiting for a little to monitor how I do
      Brenda
    • July 5, 2009 11:20 AM BST
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      I have been reading this very closely hoping to find an answer. I am very hairy from the neck down. Places I can't reach like my back are not real thick but to thick to let it show. It's funny places like my legs & underarms are kind of thin, While my chest & stomoch are coverd with short curly hair. Shaving takes a couple of hours on a good day.
      Maybe they can strap me into a harness & dip me into a pool of acid. But it's these things that make it hard for me to be who I want to be.
    • July 5, 2009 2:23 PM BST
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      I was medium hairy before hormones. I was started on a high dose of oral eostrogen/progesterone, which was reduced after a couple of years, then eostrogen alone by patch for a couple of years, then added a testosterone inhibitor by implant.

      I now have no chest hair, a little on my stomach, legs and arms, all of which can go four weeks plus without looking too unsightly.
      There is still a little growth on my face even after laser, but even this is minimal and soft and light, and I don' need to touch it for days at a time.

      I believe all the above is directly attributeable to the hormones, even though I did not start until I was in my mid forties.

      Once again, I will add everyone will react differently, some may find a low dose of eostrogen alone will achieve good results, some will not and need more drastic treatment. And it usually does take time, like everything else associated with changing one's body.
    • July 5, 2009 11:41 PM BST
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      My blog from Apr 11th 2005 gives details of the dosages I was on. And they were a lot higher than that!
    • July 6, 2009 12:23 AM BST
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      As another moderator on this forum I would just like to say that I agree with Marsha in that I do not approve of anyone recommending specific dosages to others. To add to that though, I do feel it is fine to state one’s own dosage, there is no harm in “comparing notes”. The more responsible among us, fortunately that is most of us here, always stress that this is not a suggestion for anyone else’s dose. I also feel that advice such as “start as low as possible” is not potential for anyone being sued.
      We do not need to feel afraid to mention dosages, but must avoid recommending particular amounts. There is a disclaimer at the top of every thread in the hormone forum, and constant reminders of this by regular posters here.
      This forum should be as informative as possible, without misconstruing that as a green light to self-medicate, or claiming that “So-and-so said this is what I should take…”
      Marsha and I politely disagree about the essentiality of lab tests, at least as far as serum levels of estradiol are concerned. I believe a snapshot of one’s estradiol levels at any one time is affected by so many factors as to render it totally useless. Furthermore, doctors' suggestions as to what our estradiol levels should be are totally arbitrary and equally meaningless. What matters is not the level of free estradiol in your blood, but the effects you are achieving. Indeed, my lab tests have shown that a regular-as-clockwork hormone intake does not show anywhere near constant hormone levels in the blood (and never will)! To adjust dosage based on one’s latest serum levels is totally mental, if you ask me.
      Types of oestrogen, as well as dosage, will cause varying effects in different individuals. M2F feminisation is far from an exact science, any honest endocrinologist will admit this. It is all about finding what works for you, and therefore forums like this are extremely important for the furthering of knowledge for us all.
      “Hormones haven’t really worked for me” is one of the saddest statements I often see on TS forums in general. There are different types of hormones, required dosage can vary wildly, different methods of administering, and therefore almost infinite permutations of hormone regimes.
      It is a matter that requires discussion, and we are not here to stifle such debate.
      xx
      ____________________________________
      "One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
    • July 6, 2009 1:14 AM BST
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      In that case Marsha I apologise for misunderstanding your statement, “Who is to say a dose is low or high if the levels are not monitored…”
      I assumed you meant monitoring levels of the relevant hormone to determine whether the dose is low or high.
      I agree with you about monitoring liver function, and CBC which I think we call something else over here, so as not to confuse us with CBBC, or Cbeebies (both of which I can now watch as Kendal has at last gone digital!)
      Gosh Marsha, people keep agreeing with you!
      ____________________________________
      "One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
    • August 4, 2009 2:19 PM BST
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      The downside with that Rachel is that some of can't let our body hair grow and have to keep it in check regularly, which for me means twice a week. It's not a chore really though, as I've been shaving it since I was in my early 20's so it quickly became as routine as washing my hair.

      It depends on an individual's hair growth and colour as well, since mine is dark it has to go straight away. If it was lighter and/or finer, maybe it could be just once a week.

      Nikki
      ____________________________________

      Nikki x

    • August 4, 2009 11:43 PM BST
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      Rachael, if you keep your arms and legs shaved but occasionally need to be among the uninitiated, just say you take your swimming seriously! Shaved arms and legs are not uncommon in the male serious swimmers fraternity I understand...

      Ah, Nikki hun, that's a chore! I'm blessed with fairish body hair. Virtually zero on the chest and not so much on the legs and arms. I have'nt kept an eye on how often I shave but I think it's definately less than once a month. [Just wish my face had followed suit! Damn!]

      Much love

      Rae x
    • August 5, 2009 1:45 PM BST
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      Rachael - I never bothered with excuses, I just told anyone who asked that I didn't like body hair so I shave it off, the same as for my face, what's the difference? In the last 20 odd years, I could count on one hand the amount of times I was asked however. It's not as big a deal as people imagine it to be. They either aren't interested or they assume you have a reason to remove it, e.g. sports.

      Nikki
      ____________________________________

      Nikki x

    • August 5, 2009 10:18 PM BST
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      yes.. I have lost practically all the body hair though I wasn't a gorilla...now just a faint covering on my arms that is no worse than the two women bosses I work for and my thighs have a bit of dark hair but it doesn't regrow very quickly.
      I did have a good covering on my back rib cage but the hormones shifted that too...my pubic hair retreated back to a very nice female patch too...I'm on Estrogel and Spiro.
    • August 6, 2009 11:31 AM BST
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      Laser can be pretty effective, I can certainly testify to that, but I have also found that if you miss a treatment or two you will get regrowth. However, it doesn't claim to be a hair removal system, only a hair reduction system, so read the label here girls. That said, it was very effective and more or less permenant hair removal on most areas of my face, back, chest and arms, (I haven't gotten around to legs yet). The exception is the area around the mouth, where a goatee beard would be, simply because hair in that area is very resilient.

      Which is why I've just switched over to electrolysis for that area to get rid of it permenantly. The rest is just the odd wispy hair here and there which I can live with, and let's face it, GG's have those issues too, they're not 'hairfree' after all.

      However, for those days when my face feels particularly grim, I do have a handy brown paper bag with eyeholes cut out ready.

      Nikki
      ____________________________________

      Nikki x

    • August 6, 2009 10:15 PM BST
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      if the experts are right about us having anything from 300 to 700 hairs per square centimetre on our chins then there is no way all those could grow at once so even allowing for the idea that each follicle goes through a sort of monthly cycle with about 3/4 hairs in the systems at any one ttime then it mus be that a lot of follicles are really dormant for longer than the month as otherwise 300 per squrae centimetre would have them packed as tightly as fibers on velvet...if we sat in front of a mirror and carefully marked out a square centimeter on our chins and counted the hairs there wouldn't be anything like 300 let alone 700...this is why I think that laser doesn't seem to be permanent...the cycle of treatment may need to be every three weeks for a year on the darker hairs in order to catch all the hidden follicles at the correct stage when they are susceptibel to lasering.
    • August 6, 2009 10:45 PM BST
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      I’d just like to respond to Penny’s post specifically.
      I had a similar experience with laser; it seemed to be helping a bit, but when I stopped it gradually came back over the next few years. Given the time-scales involved in hair growth cycles, people should not assume that their treatment has been “permanent” until they have ceased treatment and no hair has reappeared after several years. Some lasers are better than others, but I’ve never met anyone in real life who has actually had permanent hair reduction from any type of laser. Like Penny, I spent well over a thousand pounds on 18 sessions.
      Laser treatment is NO more effective when using hormones, and the “notion that there is no longer any follicle reconstruction” in facial hair is absolutely untrue. Once you pass a certain age the hair on your face will grow forever, unless you kill the hair follicles. Hormones won’t kill them, laser will only weaken them or put them to sleep for a while, Vaniqa will only slow them down.
      Laser is so expensive, I’d advise people to spend their money on something else. Electrolysis is proven to be permanent.
      Personally, I pluck the hairs on my face, and am prescribed Vaniqa, which keeps it manageable. It is FAR preferable to shaving.
      10 days on Finasteride will not show any noticeable slowing of body hair growth, or make your skin more silky, or make your boobs grow. The body does not “protect” itself from oestrogen, we all produce it, it’s there for a reason. Most natal males don’t have enough oestrogen in their system to get any feminising effects per se.
      What Finasteride may do is stop male pattern baldness from getting any worse, but it will take 3 – 4 months for this to happen. It does not make hair re-grow as such, Minoxidil may help with that. Studies have suggested that a higher dose of Finasteride may slow body hair growth in natal females, but the conclusions are far from indisputable. I haven’t come across any such studies in natal males as yet. I don’t think Finasteride has affected my body hair at all. My head hair hasn’t receded at all since I’ve been using it, but had done beforehand.
      It is difficult when you are undergoing laser or electrolysis to deal with facial hair, as you have to have some growth to be able to treat it (more growth is needed for electrolysis than for laser). Is this why you are going round Asda with stubble Penny? When I used to shave I had problems if I did it every day, my skin just didn’t like having a blade dragged over it. Fortunately I wasn’t working full-time so managed to avoid shaving every day, usually.
      I’m very nearly 2 years post-op, 5 years on hormones, had 18 sessions of laser, been using Vaniqa for about 3 years. I still have facial hair. My epilator is my best friend. I used to have a few odd hairs on my chest, maybe 15 or so but not all at one time, I always plucked them out. These are the only hairs on my body that have disappeared in the last 5 years. Can’t say I’ve noticed any change anywhere else.
      I’ll report back in another 5 years…
      xx
      ____________________________________
      "One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
    • August 7, 2009 11:26 PM BST
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      Maybe this should be in a seperate thread, apols, but have been pondering something stated a few days ago - so quite a few posts ago now!

      For clarification, Marsha / Lucy, are you saying that results for hormone levels in blood tests can be ignored as irrelevant, and that concern should instead focus only on physical changes when determining whether or not you should perhaps change dosage levels? [and, one would imagine, any adverse effects].
      Sure you appreciate this area is of increasing importance to me whilst – typically – appearing to get all the more confusing….

      Much love

      Rae xx
    • August 8, 2009 12:00 AM BST
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      Marsha, thanks for that hunni, am getting things a little clearer.
      And fully appreciate the adage that 'less is more'.
      More or less.

      xx
    • August 8, 2009 1:05 AM BST
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      I kind of agree with Marsha.
      Though I know exactly what she means, I wouldn’t describe feminisation from female hormones as a “side-effect”. Of course, achieving feminisation is not why natal females usually take hormone “supplements” but it is the primary effect that nature intended.
      Anyhoo…
      Blood tests for measuring hormone levels are wholly unreliable. They are basically a snapshot of one’s levels at any one time. The resulting level will be hugely affected by when you took your last pill/gel/shot, the time of day, when you last ate, how much you ate, how much you ate the day before, how much water you’ve had to drink, and so on.
      The big mistake, in my opinion, is to base oestrogen dosage on test results. Unfortunately far too many GP’s do exactly this, perhaps because that’s the way the endo at Charing Cross, and probably other gender clinics thinks is somehow a foolproof method. To suggest a certain level of oestrogen in the blood will achieve feminisation is totally arbitrary, has no scientific basis, and no studies have been done to demonstrate the effectiveness of such a “philosophy”. In short, the level that any endo says you should be aiming for is totally made up. Natal female hormone levels vary wildly, hugely wildly. Our “ideal” level is picked out seemingly at random, not an average of anything, usually at the lower end of where female levels might be, and so what…? Who is to say that this level is what we need to achieve feminisation? Female levels do not remain at this constant, why should we achieve good results on a steady, low-ish level which is virtually impossible to measure accurately anyway. I could go on, but you get the point, yeah?
      It’s a nonsensical way of doing things. I went for an appointment at CX regarding referral for a trach shave, they said, “You might as well have a blood test while you’re here…”
      I wasn’t expecting it, I’d had one recently which was “fine” (according to them). I’d arrived in London the night before, my train was extremely late getting in so I’d checked into my hotel and gone straight out for dinner. I ended up staying out later than I’d expected (a nice man bought me dinner), I got back and realised I’d missed putting my gel on as I’d been on the train all day, so I slapped it on in the early hours. I also took my evening pill, much later than usual. Then I had to get up early for my appointment, quick shower and applied more gel, didn’t want to leave it until late as I’d be on the train all day again, and took my morning pill. 2 pills, and 2 lots of gel within the space of a few hours. Had my test done that morning. Unsurprisingly, estradiol level was pretty high (yet still well within “female levels”).
      So their endo sent a letter to my GP a couple of weeks later saying my estradiol level was “enormously raised…” and I should lower my dose. I’ve never met the endo at CX, I never got the chance to tell him I’d taken a “catch-up” dose late at night followed by most of my quota for the day in the morning. He never asked, of course.
      I explained to my GP why the level was higher than before, but he was still reluctant not to follow the word of the gods from Charing Cross. Such is their influence, and ignorance.
      “Don’t self-medicate, go see an expert” is advice you will see littered about TS forums everywhere. My advice – become an expert yourself. It’s your life, your transition, your body. You are more important than random numbers on a screen; not everyone sees you that way. They crunch your numbers, and get paid lots. That keeps them happy. Blind faith in such gods is not for me.
      You’ll get the hang of hormones when you take them, you will know how they are affecting you; it’s difficult to explain to someone who doesn’t take them. Some people seem to need higher doses than others. As I always say, give it time. Don’t increase your dosage every month just because your breasts don’t seem to be growing. Ignore the “guidelines” you have read on the internet, like it takes two years to achieve full breast growth – that is utter nonsense. Try seven, or ten, or somewhere more realistic around there. Once again, it varies. And also, a higher dose will probably not mean they will grow any quicker.
      A sufficient dose is what you are aiming for, and breast growth is not the only factor you should go by to determine this.
      But estradiol level is certainly not a factor.
      xx
      ____________________________________
      "One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
    • August 8, 2009 3:13 AM BST
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      Marsha:
      I absolutely am not advocating self-medication. Like you, I have a doctor who supervises my med’s and we work together, well, things are pretty settled now it seems, so there isn’t much “work” to be done.
      Regular blood tests are essential to monitor your health, just ignore estradiol levels, they are virtually meaningless.
      I’m not giving anyone any credit, I don’t often do that (worra bitch), dunno why you suggest I do! Nor am I suggesting that people should do what I say, just offering my opinion, as always. But if was suggesting that people should do as I say, and they didn’t, they wouldn’t be deserving of any credit from me would they. No, I really don’t give some people too much credit.

      Your “almost sense” was not quite accurate; there is no surprise that I was agreeing with you. You often say your opinions differ from others here, but that’s not really the case. I often agree with you, so do others. I just put it differently, or add bits, or be pedantic about some bits, (pedanticism, a bit of a hobby of mine). We all have opinions Marsha, you are not unique in that respect, and you are not always alone in your opinion.
      You’re absolutely right in your first paragraph, I just wanted to make the point about oestrogen.
      We are advised to stop hormones before surgery as a precaution, but since I think that was a rhetorical question and you know the answer I won’t go there.
      Just to clarify for others’ benefit, Vaniqa is not a pill, it’s a cream. It does not remove hair. It’s very expensive yes, but pretty cheap on NHS prescription!
      Indeed, Spiro will NOT remove facial hair. Spiro in fact can be extremely dangerous if used in ignorance. Which is why you should be an expert, and discuss your med’s with your doctor. I expect I feel much the same as you, Marsha about non-transitioners who think they can take one pill to remove hair, or one to grow breasts (perhaps just a little bit), or one that will allow them to breast feed, or one to make their bald head sprout beautiful new hair...

      As I say, I do not advocate self-medding, but nor should you take stuff without knowing anything about it even under supervision, if you value your body that is.
      The “expert’s” advice (like the CX endo for example) should be taken with a pinch of salt; if they had their way, that’s all they’d prescribe for you.
      xx
      ____________________________________
      "One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."
    • August 8, 2009 10:29 AM BST
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      I'm inclined to think that the experience of the www.transgendercare.com people is as good a guideline as we are likely to have as they have the experience of seeing hundreds of ts through transition and are kept in check by the US legal vultures so as they say aim for high estro and low testo numbers then that sounds good to me.

      It would be interesting to know what the preferred hormone regime is for the different gender clinics in the state funded countreis of the EU are but I've never seen any details published...and that makes me wonder if in fact they might respond to a request to be posted on here as a warning and guideline...I'll try that and see if they respond.

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