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Body hair reduction?

  • hay people i have like massive hair on ma body so thick thts they wudnt *** off frm waxing even please help me what should i take iam a m2f tranny and tired of body hair now due to waxing my body and pimples and marks tht wud bleed serious help needed!
      April 9, 2012 11:37 PM BST
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  • For my 2 Canadian cents, I have noticed a nice reduction of body hair, especailly on my chest, arms a little less and legs not too sure yet. My face remains normal and did laser, now doing electro for those white hairs...lol yes I am getting old. I am on 2mg estro 3 times a day
    nothing else at this time. Dr. says perhaps Spiro but waiting for a little to monitor how I do
    Brenda
      March 27, 2010 8:13 PM GMT
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  • thanks

    well premarin is the only one i can get around here. I know there are others but they are extremly hard to find. I already have to take a 3 hours busride to another city just to buy the premarin.

    And btw its not my country i just live here im originally from Europe.
      March 18, 2010 9:18 AM GMT
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  • Hi Selket. Welcome to The Gender Society. I enjoyed a holiday in your country last year. Re your regime,I would change from Premarin to another brand as premarin is no longer recommended in most countries.
    <p>ooxxoo</p>
      March 18, 2010 5:32 AM GMT
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  • Well i and my GF noticed that my body hair is changing.

    For example on my arms and legs they are nearly all white and fluffy now compared to the hard "cablelish" black hair.

    My face is a different story there is some reduction in growth speed and density but from this point not much.

    i take Premarin, Spirono and progestron (From chinese Companies)
      March 18, 2010 1:51 AM GMT
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  • 734
    Thankyou Lynn, I'll take a peek.

    Rae xx
    www.raekelcou.com
      August 10, 2009 10:48 PM BST
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  • Rae, Rose's website is run by the girls and boys who bring you Repartee Magazine-you may have come across it in the UK.It doesn't cost anything to use their site-you just have to register.You may find it useful though since the TS forums there basically reflect the experiences of NHS users and other T-people in the UK in a way which TW does not.For example,you'll find there a much heftier discussion about the NHS and genital epilation than here.

    Katie:This is not meant to devalue TW!!


    ciao

    Lynn
    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      August 10, 2009 7:53 PM BST
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  • 734
    mmm, being a mere foot soldier here at TW and not privy to surgical forums [it'll change in time...] I can only base my thoughts on what I glean here on the mean streets and then researching elsewhere.
    With those restrictions in mind, I'm certainly in the Dr Suporn camp. I would'nt want it done any other way.
    So my first novel, dammit, had better be a bestseller...

    Much love

    Rae xx
    www.raekelcou.com
      August 10, 2009 1:37 AM BST
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  • Lucy

    Reading the appropriate postings on this topic on Rose's gives a rather different picture.There is certainly one girl there who went NHS and is now having serious and painful problems precisely because CX/NHS considered gental area epilation unnecessary.It would also seem that only now are UK SRS surgeons,and the NHS,grudgingly accepting that such a treatment pre-op might perhapsbe a good idea after all and that it will even be funded.
    It all seems to be down to the technique employed for SRS.The NHS is apparently still inverting the penis,unlike Suporn and his colleagues in Thailand.As you are well aware,Dr. Suporn & co use the scrotal skin ,from which they scrape the hair follicles during the operation.This is why the op in Thailand takes a little longer than in CX and also explains why they specifically request that you do not undergo epilation of the genital area pre-op.They are also of the opinion that pre-op epilation of the genital area damages the skin so much as to make it unusable.

    Lynn
    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      August 9, 2009 12:29 PM BST
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  • Moderator
    1638
    There are no surgeons in the UK that do not require complete removal of genital air prior to SRS. Skimp on this requirement at your peril.

    Doctor Suporn removes the hair follicles entirely during surgery and recommends that no attempt is made to do any hair removal beforehand. His technique works brilliantly, his results overall are fantastic. I’m not saying his because I’ve read it, but because I have been there and got the T-shirt.
    xx
    <p><span style="font-family: 'book antiqua', palatino; font-size: medium; color: #000080;">"Stop aspiring to be other people and start being you."</span></p> <p>Gok Wan</p>
      August 9, 2009 10:45 AM BST
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  • Hi Lynn,
    Regarding your statement:
    "for SRS in the UK epilation of the genital area is essential if you don't want your new vagina turning into a furry grotto. " I'm not so sure that is true. Other than trimming. I haven't decided where I will have my SRS done and by whom. I am considering Dr. Suporn. I've noticed that he does not recommend electolysis or complete hair removal in the genital area. It's possible I misunderstood. You can google SRS + Suporn and check it out. His "hairless" results are fascinating. Others may advise differently and I am still researching. Hugs.
    Katherine
      August 8, 2009 3:20 PM BST
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  • In a possibly vain attempt to drag this thread back onto topic................

    It seems to me that the lesson to be drawn is,when you start transitioning,rather than placing blind faith in HRT, to also start the hair removal process.Whichever method you use is a matter of personal preference and financial situation.From what I've read on other forums it would also appear that,contrary to what UK surgeons say,for SRS in the UK epilation of the genital area is essential if you don't want your new vagina turning into a furry grotto.


    Lynn
    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      August 8, 2009 2:42 PM BST
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  • It is interesting where this thread has led after starting off really asking why my friend would need a dosage 10X the normal dosage for hair control. Actually I think it is great how this thread transpired with lots of participation. I think the consensus is you need to be realistic about your expectations and that is best done by learning as much about the medications you are taking, as Lucy brought up, be your own expert. I know my doctor listens to me and trusts me because of the research I have done in the past. He can prescribe me a much higher dosage which saves me money, knowing that I will quarter the tablet without concern that I will abuse the medication. Just this week I told him I refused to take premarin because of my concerns for the higher risks associated with it, so he changed my script to estradiol. BTW, the script was for supplementing my injections to mellow out the mood swings, who me, mood swings? lol. This is a journey, not a race.

    Rose, transgendercare.com does offer lots of great info and if you are comfortable seeing the numbers, so be it. As a general rule you know testosterone is in control when you have dry orgasms. E2, estradiol, levels are right when you are not low on energy, not having hot flashes and generally a consistent ache in the nipple area. It is kind of fun to see the numbers, but as Lucy pointed out they can easily be misinterpreted. As for testosterone numbers, I take bicalutamide which doesn't prevent production of testosterone like spiro, instead my casodex blocks and breaks down testosterone receptors so the testosterone produced is useless. As my doctor put it, the T numbers are completely useless when on casodex. A lot of this is really all about your comfort level and trust that you are being properly taken care of. The problem arises when you see someone who reacts in a desperate manner wanting to transition right now if not sooner. I believe we have all seen those people. I also think none of us are saying don't take hormones, instead we are saying, take them responsibly.

    Hugs and thank you to everyone who has participated in this thread,
    Marsha
      August 8, 2009 12:39 PM BST
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  • I am certainly not an expert, having read this thread with some considerable interest, But I do know, (a similie coming up,) if you put rocket fuel in a car engine, you do not get somwhere quicker, you just blow yourselves up. I have know girls that do medicate and they assume that if they double doses they will get there twice as quick. As Marsha and Lucy have advocated, , ignorance is not bliss.

    Cassandra Whitehead.

    There I have posted
      August 8, 2009 10:47 AM BST
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  • I'm inclined to think that the experience of the www.transgendercare.com people is as good a guideline as we are likely to have as they have the experience of seeing hundreds of ts through transition and are kept in check by the US legal vultures so as they say aim for high estro and low testo numbers then that sounds good to me.

    It would be interesting to know what the preferred hormone regime is for the different gender clinics in the state funded countreis of the EU are but I've never seen any details published...and that makes me wonder if in fact they might respond to a request to be posted on here as a warning and guideline...I'll try that and see if they respond.
      August 8, 2009 10:29 AM BST
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  • Hugs Lucy, It sounds like we actually agree, just have different ways of saying it. Hopefully between the two of us, others will get the message that it really is important to learn everything you can about this stuff. And for that matter, you never stop learning. As we have gone back and forth in this and other threads, I continue to learn more about you and clarify areas I did not understand. I do like the way you spelled things out here because I did feel you were too much of an advocate for self medding. But you have clarified that here and I do agree with you and I am glad to see that.
    Love,
    Marsha
      August 8, 2009 3:30 AM BST
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  • Moderator
    1638
    Marsha:
    I absolutely am not advocating self-medication. Like you, I have a doctor who supervises my med’s and we work together, well, things are pretty settled now it seems, so there isn’t much “work” to be done.
    Regular blood tests are essential to monitor your health, just ignore estradiol levels, they are virtually meaningless.
    I’m not giving anyone any credit, I don’t often do that (worra bitch), dunno why you suggest I do! Nor am I suggesting that people should do what I say, just offering my opinion, as always. But if was suggesting that people should do as I say, and they didn’t, they wouldn’t be deserving of any credit from me would they. No, I really don’t give some people too much credit.

    Your “almost sense” was not quite accurate; there is no surprise that I was agreeing with you. You often say your opinions differ from others here, but that’s not really the case. I often agree with you, so do others. I just put it differently, or add bits, or be pedantic about some bits, (pedanticism, a bit of a hobby of mine). We all have opinions Marsha, you are not unique in that respect, and you are not always alone in your opinion.
    You’re absolutely right in your first paragraph, I just wanted to make the point about oestrogen.
    We are advised to stop hormones before surgery as a precaution, but since I think that was a rhetorical question and you know the answer I won’t go there.
    Just to clarify for others’ benefit, Vaniqa is not a pill, it’s a cream. It does not remove hair. It’s very expensive yes, but pretty cheap on NHS prescription!
    Indeed, Spiro will NOT remove facial hair. Spiro in fact can be extremely dangerous if used in ignorance. Which is why you should be an expert, and discuss your med’s with your doctor. I expect I feel much the same as you, Marsha about non-transitioners who think they can take one pill to remove hair, or one to grow breasts (perhaps just a little bit), or one that will allow them to breast feed, or one to make their bald head sprout beautiful new hair...

    As I say, I do not advocate self-medding, but nor should you take stuff without knowing anything about it even under supervision, if you value your body that is.
    The “expert’s” advice (like the CX endo for example) should be taken with a pinch of salt; if they had their way, that’s all they’d prescribe for you.
    xx
    <p><span style="font-family: 'book antiqua', palatino; font-size: medium; color: #000080;">"Stop aspiring to be other people and start being you."</span></p> <p>Gok Wan</p>
      August 8, 2009 3:13 AM BST
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  • Lucy, probably not so much about the estradiol but instead the spiro's, finasterides, bicalutamides and some of the other medications taken by TS's are the ones that we tend to take for the side effects. But even the estradiols were not designed by the manufacturers for our use and therefore there are no manufacturer recommended dosages.

    I almost sensed a little surprise that you kind of agreed with me. I do agree with most of what you said with one caveat. You brought up the “Don’t self-medicate, go see an expert” and that is my preference. However, like you I fully believe you should research this stuff and be your own expert just as you said. I have self medicated, so yes, been there, done that. I did a lot of research which now I am able to work with my doctor to ensure I am progressing as desired. So I believe in both, you being an expert and also having a doctor. At least make sure someone knows what you are doing so if an emergency health issue comes up the medical personnel will know the medications you currently use so they can proceed as needed. Simply put Lucy, if it didn't matter, then why did you have to stop your hormones before your surgery? It does matter and whether your doctor helps you, agrees with you, or whatever, they need to know the medications you are taking.

    Here is a prime example why I will keep recommending a doctor. Last night here at TW, I was chatting with a TV that is self medicating and has no intention of transitioning. Basically trying to feminize. I won't scream right or wrong, it is her decision. She started telling me that she was going to get the pills to make facial hair go away. I said there isn't such a thing, I don't consider your vanaqa a hair removal pill. But I did say vanaqa is pretty expensive, $72 here in the states and insurance won't cover it. She said no, it is really cheap like $4 and went and got the name of it. I couldn't believe it when she said SPIRONOLACTONE. Yep, she got the idea from somewhere that spiro would remove her facial hair. Someone not knowing the proper use of spiro can cause themselves some serious harm. I think involving a doctor can prevent this type of total misinformation which could potentially have devastating effects. I love you to death Lucy, but sometimes I feel you just give some people too much credit. Yes if they did what you say they would likely be fine, the problem is they don't and won't. Yes, I prefer to stay on the safe side of things with no regrets.

    Lots of hugs,
    Marsha


    Lots of hugs,
    Marsha
      August 8, 2009 2:20 AM BST
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  • Moderator
    1638
    I kind of agree with Marsha.
    Though I know exactly what she means, I wouldn’t describe feminisation from female hormones as a “side-effect”. Of course, achieving feminisation is not why natal females usually take hormone “supplements” but it is the primary effect that nature intended.
    Anyhoo…
    Blood tests for measuring hormone levels are wholly unreliable. They are basically a snapshot of one’s levels at any one time. The resulting level will be hugely affected by when you took your last pill/gel/shot, the time of day, when you last ate, how much you ate, how much you ate the day before, how much water you’ve had to drink, and so on.
    The big mistake, in my opinion, is to base oestrogen dosage on test results. Unfortunately far too many GP’s do exactly this, perhaps because that’s the way the endo at Charing Cross, and probably other gender clinics thinks is somehow a foolproof method. To suggest a certain level of oestrogen in the blood will achieve feminisation is totally arbitrary, has no scientific basis, and no studies have been done to demonstrate the effectiveness of such a “philosophy”. In short, the level that any endo says you should be aiming for is totally made up. Natal female hormone levels vary wildly, hugely wildly. Our “ideal” level is picked out seemingly at random, not an average of anything, usually at the lower end of where female levels might be, and so what…? Who is to say that this level is what we need to achieve feminisation? Female levels do not remain at this constant, why should we achieve good results on a steady, low-ish level which is virtually impossible to measure accurately anyway. I could go on, but you get the point, yeah?
    It’s a nonsensical way of doing things. I went for an appointment at CX regarding referral for a trach shave, they said, “You might as well have a blood test while you’re here…”
    I wasn’t expecting it, I’d had one recently which was “fine” (according to them). I’d arrived in London the night before, my train was extremely late getting in so I’d checked into my hotel and gone straight out for dinner. I ended up staying out later than I’d expected (a nice man bought me dinner), I got back and realised I’d missed putting my gel on as I’d been on the train all day, so I slapped it on in the early hours. I also took my evening pill, much later than usual. Then I had to get up early for my appointment, quick shower and applied more gel, didn’t want to leave it until late as I’d be on the train all day again, and took my morning pill. 2 pills, and 2 lots of gel within the space of a few hours. Had my test done that morning. Unsurprisingly, estradiol level was pretty high (yet still well within “female levels”).
    So their endo sent a letter to my GP a couple of weeks later saying my estradiol level was “enormously raised…” and I should lower my dose. I’ve never met the endo at CX, I never got the chance to tell him I’d taken a “catch-up” dose late at night followed by most of my quota for the day in the morning. He never asked, of course.
    I explained to my GP why the level was higher than before, but he was still reluctant not to follow the word of the gods from Charing Cross. Such is their influence, and ignorance.
    “Don’t self-medicate, go see an expert” is advice you will see littered about TS forums everywhere. My advice – become an expert yourself. It’s your life, your transition, your body. You are more important than random numbers on a screen; not everyone sees you that way. They crunch your numbers, and get paid lots. That keeps them happy. Blind faith in such gods is not for me.
    You’ll get the hang of hormones when you take them, you will know how they are affecting you; it’s difficult to explain to someone who doesn’t take them. Some people seem to need higher doses than others. As I always say, give it time. Don’t increase your dosage every month just because your breasts don’t seem to be growing. Ignore the “guidelines” you have read on the internet, like it takes two years to achieve full breast growth – that is utter nonsense. Try seven, or ten, or somewhere more realistic around there. Once again, it varies. And also, a higher dose will probably not mean they will grow any quicker.
    A sufficient dose is what you are aiming for, and breast growth is not the only factor you should go by to determine this.
    But estradiol level is certainly not a factor.
    xx
    <p><span style="font-family: 'book antiqua', palatino; font-size: medium; color: #000080;">"Stop aspiring to be other people and start being you."</span></p> <p>Gok Wan</p>
      August 8, 2009 1:05 AM BST
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  • 734
    Marsha, thanks for that hunni, am getting things a little clearer.
    And fully appreciate the adage that 'less is more'.
    More or less.

    xx
    www.raekelcou.com
      August 8, 2009 12:00 AM BST
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  • Rae, I guess the answer would be yes with an asterisk. I believe reasonable dosages have been established and when those dosages don't appear to be doing the job, instead of taking more of everything, you should start wondering why you are not getting the desired changes and whether or not something else in your health is effecting the change. That is where doctors, endos, and lab tests become crucial. But your estradiol and testosterone levels are actually irrelevant if change is happening. What you want to accomplish is change with the least amount of medication. Remember we are after the side effects of these medications so it is important to be aware of "all" the possible effects of a medication before modifying a dose.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
      August 7, 2009 11:53 PM BST
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  • 734
    Maybe this should be in a seperate thread, apols, but have been pondering something stated a few days ago - so quite a few posts ago now!

    For clarification, Marsha / Lucy, are you saying that results for hormone levels in blood tests can be ignored as irrelevant, and that concern should instead focus only on physical changes when determining whether or not you should perhaps change dosage levels? [and, one would imagine, any adverse effects].
    Sure you appreciate this area is of increasing importance to me whilst – typically – appearing to get all the more confusing….

    Much love

    Rae xx
    www.raekelcou.com
      August 7, 2009 11:26 PM BST
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  • Moderator
    1638
    I’d just like to respond to Penny’s post specifically.
    I had a similar experience with laser; it seemed to be helping a bit, but when I stopped it gradually came back over the next few years. Given the time-scales involved in hair growth cycles, people should not assume that their treatment has been “permanent” until they have ceased treatment and no hair has reappeared after several years. Some lasers are better than others, but I’ve never met anyone in real life who has actually had permanent hair reduction from any type of laser. Like Penny, I spent well over a thousand pounds on 18 sessions.
    Laser treatment is NO more effective when using hormones, and the “notion that there is no longer any follicle reconstruction” in facial hair is absolutely untrue. Once you pass a certain age the hair on your face will grow forever, unless you kill the hair follicles. Hormones won’t kill them, laser will only weaken them or put them to sleep for a while, Vaniqa will only slow them down.
    Laser is so expensive, I’d advise people to spend their money on something else. Electrolysis is proven to be permanent.
    Personally, I pluck the hairs on my face, and am prescribed Vaniqa, which keeps it manageable. It is FAR preferable to shaving.
    10 days on Finasteride will not show any noticeable slowing of body hair growth, or make your skin more silky, or make your boobs grow. The body does not “protect” itself from oestrogen, we all produce it, it’s there for a reason. Most natal males don’t have enough oestrogen in their system to get any feminising effects per se.
    What Finasteride may do is stop male pattern baldness from getting any worse, but it will take 3 – 4 months for this to happen. It does not make hair re-grow as such, Minoxidil may help with that. Studies have suggested that a higher dose of Finasteride may slow body hair growth in natal females, but the conclusions are far from indisputable. I haven’t come across any such studies in natal males as yet. I don’t think Finasteride has affected my body hair at all. My head hair hasn’t receded at all since I’ve been using it, but had done beforehand.
    It is difficult when you are undergoing laser or electrolysis to deal with facial hair, as you have to have some growth to be able to treat it (more growth is needed for electrolysis than for laser). Is this why you are going round Asda with stubble Penny? When I used to shave I had problems if I did it every day, my skin just didn’t like having a blade dragged over it. Fortunately I wasn’t working full-time so managed to avoid shaving every day, usually.
    I’m very nearly 2 years post-op, 5 years on hormones, had 18 sessions of laser, been using Vaniqa for about 3 years. I still have facial hair. My epilator is my best friend. I used to have a few odd hairs on my chest, maybe 15 or so but not all at one time, I always plucked them out. These are the only hairs on my body that have disappeared in the last 5 years. Can’t say I’ve noticed any change anywhere else.
    I’ll report back in another 5 years…
    xx
    <p><span style="font-family: 'book antiqua', palatino; font-size: medium; color: #000080;">"Stop aspiring to be other people and start being you."</span></p> <p>Gok Wan</p>
      August 6, 2009 10:45 PM BST
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  • if the experts are right about us having anything from 300 to 700 hairs per square centimetre on our chins then there is no way all those could grow at once so even allowing for the idea that each follicle goes through a sort of monthly cycle with about 3/4 hairs in the systems at any one ttime then it mus be that a lot of follicles are really dormant for longer than the month as otherwise 300 per squrae centimetre would have them packed as tightly as fibers on velvet...if we sat in front of a mirror and carefully marked out a square centimeter on our chins and counted the hairs there wouldn't be anything like 300 let alone 700...this is why I think that laser doesn't seem to be permanent...the cycle of treatment may need to be every three weeks for a year on the darker hairs in order to catch all the hidden follicles at the correct stage when they are susceptibel to lasering.
      August 6, 2009 10:15 PM BST
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  • Leaving the beard on one side for the moment,although not on hormones at the moment,my experience has been that using wax fairly regularly will both reduce the amount of body hair and make what hangs on in there finer.Luckily I've been spared the 'were you born or knitted?' class of hairiness but even so in the chest area things are down to isolated stragglers which are easy to deal with.On legs and arms the hair growth is generally finer as well as more sparse.All of this I've done myself.Admittedly,those of you with hairy backs will find it slightly difficult to treat yourselves.One thing I did notice when I stopped the hormones was that the backs of my hands became hairier than they had been before-an area which should not be ignored.I do occasionally shave legs and/or arms but generally I find that a fairly regular waxing is sufficient.OK,I also have the advantage of living in a country where slightly hairy arms,legs and armpits on women are not quite the social problem/disaster they are in other countries.

    I got rid of my beard with electrolysis-took a while-cultivated my pain threshold somewhat-but apart from some isolated stragglers,which have become much finer anyway,I can now venture forth without make-up.

    The only advantage I can see for shaving is that it's quick and painless...................

    Hormones slowed down my hair growth,which is probably what most experience.Everything else probably varies from individual to individual.


    Lynn

    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      August 6, 2009 7:28 PM BST
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