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Phoenix Project!

  • Christine writes:
    "regarding the substantiated adverse reports about pueraria murificia, you have not made any comment about that?
    We are talking about the extracts from the white root. "

    Couple of things, since you asked:
    Animal testing of products for toxicity, involves giving animals greater and larger dosages, until the animal dies.
    If something will eventually kill an animal, regardless of extreme dosage, it is labeled toxic.
    Unless the substance is a drug -- drugs are not considered toxic until they are killing actual people,
    for example Vioxx.

    The animal tested dosage where Pueraria Murificia becomes toxic, is 600mg per Kg of body weight.
    A Kilogram is 2.2 pounds.
    A 176 pound person -- 80Kg person -- would therefore need to consume 600 x 80 = 48,000mg of pueraria murifica daily...
    which is 48 grams of pueraria murifica daily. That is a LOT of raw dry herb to be swallowing....
    which is 240 capsules daily at 200mg daily of raw herb.

    If someone were to consume an entire bottle every day, of our product with the highest amount of pueraria murifica ingredients,
    they would be getting 2,400mg; one twentieth of this toxic amount. Five percent.
    A 176 pound person would have to consume twenty full 60-capsule-bottles daily, to even approach the toxic amount.

    But hey -- I might have a bias on the safety of pueraria mirificia

    So let's see what real research and testing says:
    This is the US National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health

    This study compared pueraria murificia against Premarin,
    with and without added Provera (medroxyprogesterone)
    "CONCLUSION: PM, [Pueraria Murificia] containing phytoestrogens, has estrogenic effect as similar as [Premarin],
    and can alleviate the climacteric symptoms in perimenopausal women.
    PM demonstrates great promise in the treatment of climacteric symptoms."

    And nothing about it being toxic, in either study.

    Every form of supplemental estrogen can be toxic if used in overdose.

    By the way, pure clean water can bring adverse reactions also, if someone overdoses on it.
    Pure clean water can kill a human being, if overdosed.

      April 27, 2010 1:09 AM BST
  • Tammy writes:
    "I have tried many types of Saw Palmetto, for quite a few years.
    NONE of these products made any difference. Note I said, I used them for many years ( at least 5-6 ) I thought it may help. And they did not help my older brother either.
    [...] Soooo, I must rule out Saw Palmetto, as having any help for BPH."

    First the important disclaimer:
    My web site does not sell ANY Saw Palmetto products..
    Nor is Saw Palmetto an ingredient in any of the products on my web site.

    I have "no dog in this hunt".

    I will not begin to guess the source of the Saw Palmetto whichTammy and her brother used.
    Nor the potency of it.
    I will only assume that what they used, was something other than a good brand of Saw Palmetto Complex,
    yes, available OTC (Over the Counter) but more expensive than just crushed herbs in a bottle.

    But it makes no sense to say that if something did not "work" for two people, it must therefore not work for anyone at all.

    The original post I made about saw palmetto, has three links to research studies
    which do show Saw Palmetto to be very effective
    for the majority of people who use it properly.

    There are many people for whom Avodart, and finasteride, do not "work", either.
    But those drugs do "work" for most people,
    albiet with several negative side effects....
    If finasteride did not work for "two" people, would it really be reasonable to say would not work for anyone?

    Maybe the question should be:
    Are people using finasteride for prostate or for hair loss, aware that there is an enzyme in finasteride,
    which, if it gets into the body of a woman who is or may become pregnant,
    can permanently destroy the penis -- genitalia -- of a male fetus?
    <> See the Precautions section.

    I know Marsha Ann has huge concerns for the health safety of people in transition.
    So do I.
    Please read and consider <>
    (skip over the "Google Ads" sections, and read to the bottom of the page

      April 27, 2010 12:09 AM BST
  • Well, now I have to ring in here on this.
    I have tried many types of Saw Palmetto, for quite a few years. As my family history of genetic problems follow the lines of BPH problems.

    NONE of these products made any difference. Note I said, I used them for many years ( at least 5-6 ) I thought it may help. And they did not help my older brother either.

    This past 10 months I have been on half a MG of Avodart ( finasteride ) and 8MG of Cardura. My prostrate has gotten smaller on these doctor prescribed medicines.
    Soooo, I must rule out Saw Palmetto, as having any help for BPH.
    I also know quite a few people my age and older ( 63 + ) that have tried herbal products for this ( BPH ) to no avail. When I say quite a few, means more than ten.

    I will not rule out all herbal products that may be given at prescription type strength, and monitored by a qualified doctor.
    But OTC products, well go out and buy yourself a nice dress, that works least you'll feel better.
    <p>A life without purpose, is a life without reason!</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;</p>
      April 26, 2010 6:50 AM BST
  • Dainna C

    Whilst noting your comments on saw Palmetto, very comendable. whilst not demeaning your intention to issue a very valid warning about it.

    By Dianna On 2010-04-18 06:26PM

    > is Evanesce ES a good choice for the task?

    Evanesce-ES has pueraria murificia as one of its ingredients.
    Feminol has a LOT more pueraria murificia, as one of its ingredients.

    Evanesce and Evanesce-ES also, besides the estrogenic ingredients,
    contain extremely potent testosterone blockers.

    And if the testosterone blocker in Evanesce-ES are not strong enough,
    We also have AndroEase, which is all testosterone blockers
    and CalmCompanion will be available once again in mid-May.

    So we are trying to cover all the bases, no matter how difficult an individual's body may be to responding.
    "Helping you on your journey toward becoming a whole person"

    That is from your own sponsored forum,.....

    regarding the substantiated adverse reports about pueraria murificia, you have not made any comment about that? We are talking about the extracts from the white root. Wikipedia has endorsed its reference to beneificial claims, as needing substantiating endorsement, none found.

    Cristine Shye

    Wikipedias adendum regarding this entry

    Example: Most people believe in ghosts.[citation needed]

    This tag signals you to do the following:

    Exercise caution when relying upon unsourced claims.
    If you have reason to think that the claim is inaccurate, you may remove the claim altogether. Optionally, paste it into the article's talk page and explain your reasoning.

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      April 25, 2010 9:06 PM BST
  • 2625
    To get your $ they'll say anything you want to hear.
    <p>Karen Brad</p>
      April 25, 2010 9:02 PM BST
  • Actually that was the point I was trying to make Dainna, that saw palmetto works for male prostate issues. But! saw palmetto does not provide the same side-effects that a transitioning male to female uses the pharmaceutical products for. So my point is the people who sell saw palmetto to MTFs for breast enlargement are way off base.


      April 25, 2010 6:40 PM BST
  • Marsha Ann writes:
    "I always wondered about saw palmetto myself. I'm guessing those selling saw palmetto products are thinking along the lines of how finasteride or bicalutamide work on the prostate"

    Actually, its the opposite:
    people selling finasteride or bicalutamide are thinking along the lines of how saw palmetto works on the prostate.

    People "selling saw palmetto products" are just doing what most of the people around the world have been doing for centuries, for millenia,
    they are selling saw palmetto to help to mitigate prostate problems.
    Because science still shows saw palmetto working better than the drugs developed for this purpose.


    The FAR bigger issue, as I posted, is the immense mis-understanding, the wrong-belief,
    that saw palmetto will help a male-bodied person to grow breasts, or to otherwise feminize.
    It will not.

    And also the issue that massive overdosing on Saw Palmetto, which some TG/TS web sites heavily promote doing,
    usually causes significant digestive and intestinal problems.
      April 25, 2010 5:35 PM BST
  • Thanks Dainna for posting that because I always wondered about saw palmetto myself. I'm guessing those selling saw palmetto products are thinking along the lines of how finasteride or bicalutamide work on the prostate and are taken by some TS's such as myself as part of my HRT regimen.

    I'm sure you are alluding to finasteride (Proscar) being used for enlarged prostates, whereas TS's often use a lower dose to control DHT to prevent further hair loss. It is also sold for hair loss prevention under the name Propecia.

    Bicalutamide (Casodex) is a prostate cancer drug that blocks Testosterone receptors. Just as there are estrogen fed breast cancers, prostate cancer is fed by testosterone. A side note on Casodex use for prostate cancer, upwards of 70% of the men who use Casodex stop using it because of breast tissue growth. Casodex has been proven to be deadly to as many as 50% of those who have used it at the original prescribed higher dose. This medication is not candy and should only be used under doctors supervision.

      April 25, 2010 2:24 AM BST
  • Saw Palmetto:

    Saw Palmetto is highly recommended by many TG/TS web sites as a breast growth herb, and as a feminizing herb.

    Nothing could be further from the truth,
    and those pushing Saw Palmetto for breast growth or feminization,
    are putting many TG/TS people at grave health risk.

    The truth is that a lot of scientific research over the past few years,
    has shown Saw Palmetto to be VERY good for improving prostate health;
    and this research has especially proven that a good Saw Palmetto Complex product
    will generally work better than -- out perform -- any drugs created for prostate health issues.
    With greater health safety than the drugs provide.

    Here's the problem for the girls in our community, though:

    There are many born-women's, cis-women's, web sites which indicate that Saw Palmetto helps born/cis-women's bodies to grow larger breasts.
    This may or may not be true, but this is not true in most cases, for born women.
    And it is not true at all ever, for born-male bodies.

    There is a wildly marketed feminization scheme which emails heavily throughout the TG/TS community,
    which is called Flat2Fem.

    The woman promoting this site has many of her followers taking such HUGE dosages of Saw Palmetto on a daily basis,
    that many of our TG/TS sisters are now reporting serious problems
    with digestive and intestinal problems because of serious overdosing on this herb.

    In the name of health safety, let's be VERY clear:

    (1) Saw Palmetto is NOT estrogen, and will not become estrogen of ANY type in the human body.
    Actually, Saw Palmetto, in a born-male body, can create additional testosterone levels...

    (2) Saw Palmetto can work very well for resolving prostate problems, better than any currently available drug.

    (3) IF Saw Palmetto actually did work to grow breasts,
    the hundreds of thousands of males who use SawPalmetto frequently to resolve prostate issues,
    would most all have also grown breasts as a side effect, wanted or not.

    (4) Overdosing on Saw Palmetto, will cause digestive and intestinal problems

    (5) Saw Palmetto is one of the primary reasons that a myth exists about "herbs not working for breast growth or other feminization".

    Please pass the word to our TG/TS sisters:
    Stop the Saw Palmetto nonsense.
    It does not work, and it is NOT healthy to use in high dosages.

      April 25, 2010 12:08 AM BST
  • People will ask or state ''Why then is a company promoting herbal based transition still in business if it does'nt work'' basically because the core element of their business is not based soley on people transitioning, Looking at it from a financial point of view and scouring lots of other sites, in the main many that posted have tried the herbal route and were disatisfied with the results and gone the proper route, doctors, shrinks, endo.s etc. Thats not taking into account the ones that did'nt want to approach a doctor.

    I don't know what the newbie percentage is per capita of population, should imagine its in the thousands, but if only ten percent try herbals for a few months before discovering they are useless when it comes to male to female transitioning, thats quite an income monetary wise and an ongoing thing not somthing the promoters of this quackery realy want to lose.


    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      April 24, 2010 2:59 PM BST
  • Marsha Ann writes:
    "So you understand where I am coming from, I am not a fan of any herbal products primarily because of the confusion related to what to use a herbal for and what is the proper dosage for safe use."

    Which is, at the end of the day, about education.
    About learning what does what, and how much is safe vs how much is effective.

    Most of us do not want to learn everything about all of the drugs in the world, which one(s) to use for what and how much,
    so we rely on doctors to tell us.
    In the same vein, most of us do not want to learn about all the various plants and herbs in the world;
    and so we rely on herbologists...

    Beyond that, though, and very important to know, is that herbs are a manufacturing base for many many drug products.
    This is not just about herbs used for hormone management.

    For example, the cholestrol lower drug Lovastatin, is made from Red Yeast Rice;
    which is an herb that works just as well as the drug version works, for lowering cholesterol.

    By the way, for readers of this thread,
    ALL of the statin drugs, (Lipitor, Zocor, Lovastatin, et al) block the human body's synthesis of CoEnzyme Q10
    which is crucial for cellular energy.
    If a person is taking any statin drug, they need to also be taking CoQ10 supplements.

    I share Marsha Ann's passion for health safety, especially for people going through transition.

    And I share her passion for health safety, even one step further:
    My daughter has been dealing with a severe health issue, most of her adult life;
    she has elephantitis -- she is 6'2", and is built like a linebacker.
    She also has lymphedema; waste fluids are not pulled from her legs as they should be
    and therefore her calves are huge in circumference.

    For some amazing reason, doctor prescriptions for her various associated ailments
    (there are no medications, or herbs, for treating lymphedema itself)
    doctor prescribed dosages of drugs are the same for her 6'2" 375 pound body,
    as doctor recommendations would be for a woman five feet tall and 98 pounds...

    Just because a doctor prescribes "x" pill at "y" dosage, makes that prescription neither "safe" nor "effective" in every case.
    A recommendation for an "81mg aspirin" daily,
    is not necessarily correct both for someone 5'5" 130 pounds, and also for someone 6'2" and 375 pounds.

    By the way, for education, aspirin was originally made from an herb called white willow bark.
    Some brands still are. The primary brands are chemical/drug equivalents of this herb

    Women's medication regimens and recommendations, throughout the centuries, have honored the symptoms and also the person's body.
    Male medical regimens are based on "one size fits all"

    There are many ways to help ensure our health safety.

      April 23, 2010 3:20 PM BST
  • Cristine Shye writes:
    "Shows how much interest you realy have in this site, apart from your obvious promotional expeditions"

    Actually, if my intention was "promotional expeditions",
    I would have mentioned the products and spoken about each of them specifically.
    I have not done that in any way.

    And, by the way, y'all were posting specifically about my company and products,
    LONG before I first came here to join the discussion.
    It IS the title of this thread....

    This is a discussion forum about the use of herbs for feminizing, is it not?
    I don't think I have stepped outside of those boundaries.

      April 23, 2010 2:32 PM BST
  • Wow, after reading all the posts here I suggest the clear winner is Crissie, Lucy, Marsha.
    Scientifically researched, and you girls really impressed me with your patience but clearly right to the point, with no snafu rhetoric.
    I have never considered some of these products in question, but after this type of documentation the answer should be clear. I know of to many girls medicating themselves without a doctor, just playing Russian roulette from my view point.
    Nice work, I tried going to your website for that gas saving product you mentioned, but gosh I could not find it....LOL...I really wonder now, after reading some of the posts how many went there looking.
    Triple Huggs from Tammy
    <p>A life without purpose, is a life without reason!</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;</p>
      April 22, 2010 11:13 PM BST
  • Dainna, I appreciate and respect your views on herbal products. You have been great about not making your product out to be as safe as water as many who discuss herbals attempt to do. So you understand where I am coming from, I am not a fan of any herbal products primarily because of the confusion related to what to use a herbal for and what is the proper dosage for safe use. You may very well be right that the government prevents this information from being made available, nonetheless it is not and therefore safe use becomes an issue.

    Reading through my posts in this forum you will also note that I am a strong advocate for medical supervision while using hormone products, and there is no reason the same should not apply to herbals. My biggest fear is that many think just because they can buy herbal products off the shelf without a doctor, then these products must be safe. Maybe they are, but maybe not. 100mg for you might be ideal, but might be deadly to someone with diabetes. And last but not least because I see the same thing in pesticide usage by homeowners, if one scoop is good, two must be better. The risk is high when someone only focuses on the results and forgets about the rest of their health.

    Hugs and best wishes,
      April 22, 2010 5:10 PM BST
  • Dainna C

    Shows how much interest you realy have in this site, apart from your obvious promotional expeditions, No picture of yourself,
    likes dislikes, anything about yourself, no other postings in any other threads, purely a promotional exercise. Unbelievable.

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      April 22, 2010 3:16 PM BST
  • Marsha Ann writes:
    "I'm sure to those selling this stuff these people don't know what they are talking about. "

    Actually, some of us do know what we are talking about...

    There are dozens of reports, studies, concerning the safety of Pueraria Murificia, which are available on the internet.
    One four year old study, reported through the FDA, does not negate the dozens of studies done, and the results published, since then.

    The FDA study also does not report that there are over a dozen different kinds/types of pueraria murifica....

    On the other hand, the FDA has put considerable time and effort, over the past five years,
    into trying to prove and to teach that drug based HRT is dangerous,
    and that no one should be involved in HRT programs of any kind for any reason.

    This, based on the Women's Health Initiative study of 16,000 women, which was stopped early (before the defined stop date)
    because of an unexpected increase in breast cancer in the participating group of women.

    Since then, there have been additional study reports published about every six months,
    each implicating the dangers of taking drug hormones, i.e, HRT.

    Since then, significant numbers of born-women, have chosen to stop using drug hormones for their HRT needs,
    and to use herbal hormones, or to use herbal-based hormone formulations, instead.

      April 22, 2010 2:46 PM BST
  • Marhsa xXx

    Its not my intention to run anyone off, Herbals obviously have their place, but every possible authority and clinical evaluation is
    Herbals are of very little use or none at all when it comes to male to female transitioning.

    My personal view is that, people who are seriously contemplating or undergoing transition, are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea, availability, cost, but above all anxious for imediate results, no risk, remedies. Thats not counting the I don't want to go all the way ones, just a nice pair of tits will do, male libido intact and no questions asked. To be quite honest, there are a lot of desperate people out there, genuine people who want to go all the way, thinking perhaps if they get a start,,, start changing then they are going to get a quicker referal when they do go to get an entry form for real life at the doctors.

    What I do know your not gonna end up looking like Jordon on prescription mones. let alone herbals, What does bug me, is the preying on the confused, desperate, perhaps clinically rejected or misinformed. Giving false hopes for a buck. exploitation Using forums like this to promote their own agendas pretending all the claims they lead you to are by independant and unbiased girls with big tits.. Now that does piss me off.

    One report I read, they dug up 2 tonnes of this root, to conduct scientific studies on it. Yet nowhere can I find the results of the scientific results substantiating their claims, if I had of just dug up 2 tonnes of root and wasted it on tests, I would realy want to publish any articles substantiating the claims I was making.

    PS anyone wanna buy a few gallons of my magic pee, at a fraction of the cost of petrol for their cars? Less pollution, more mpg, enhanced performance, ozone freindly. goto my site read all the glowing reports from
    sane, inteligent and totally independant people who have driven thousands of miles using my product.


    Taking the piss as usual
    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      April 22, 2010 2:32 PM BST
  • .At the end of the day, you can only give sensible informed advice, some people will only hear what they want to hear. for gods sake somone please tell me money grows on trees.


    Me, Lucy, Marsha and many here have done it, think that speaks volumes.
    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      April 22, 2010 2:32 PM BST
  • Marsha Ann writes:
    "The problem lies in there is no published test data to prove the claims of this product.
    And more important than if the product works is what are the long term effects and side effects."

    That is correct -- there are no test data to prove claims.

    No herbal, or herbal based product intended for ANY use, is allowed, by FDA laws, to EVER make any kind of claim, or guarantee of performance.

    EVERY product which is not a patented drug, carries a Disclaimer statement in every advertising or marketing piece,
    including bottle labels,
    stating that it cannot - is not intended to -- diagnose, treat, cure or prevent a "disease".

    The FDA does not care to debate whether being transgender is a "disease".
    They want all non-prescription supplements, vitamins, etc, to be barred from sale.

    In other words, anyone marketing any health-related product, vitamin, etc.,
    must also say that their product "probably does not work", in some kind of wishy-washy language;
    which generally looks like this:
    NOTE: - FDA disclaimer - The statements on this page have not been evaluated by the Food & Drug Administration (FDA).
    These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent a disease; but rather are dietary supplements intended for nutritional support.

    So to your question -- neither I, nor anyone else talking about a non-drug supplement of ANY kind, feminization or not,
    neither I nor anyone else can even make a specific claim, much less publish "test data".
    It is illegal under Federal Law to do so.

    Unless I, or anyone else talking about a non-drug supplement of ANY kind for any purpose, is willing to spend many millions of dollars and to spend 5-7 years trying to satisfy the requirements of the product being an drug.
    Which then only can be sold with a doctor's prescription, or via black market web sites such as

    Marsha Ann also wrote:
    "And more important than if the product works is what are the long term effects and side effects. Too much of anything can be bad for you, without a documented guide to proper dosage, there is an untold risk that may exist."

    Yes -- exactly correct.

    There are a few people who will become sick and die from eating common peanuts,
    or even from eating things which common peanuts may have touched.
    Should we take peanuts off of the market entirely?

    Drinking too much water can kill a human being.
    So can drinking too little water.
    I am not trying to be argumentative here, but rather only to make a point:
    Where is the documentation guide for water?

    Are people in our community being told that Spironolactone is a potassium sparing diuretic?
    That when using Spironolactone, it is necessary to increase daily water consumption to 3 liters daily, or more?
    That when using black market Spironolactone, a person can overload their body on potassium, which is fatal?

    Marsha Ann is exactly correct in her assessment of safety concerns about things we choose to put into our bodies.

      April 22, 2010 2:15 PM BST
  • Moderator
    1638 1‚ 0
    Just a brief extract from the link above:
    “In a toxicity study, it was shown that a water extract of pueraria
    mirifica killed mice with surgically removed ovaries, within 2-3 minutes... The study showed that when mice were fed 100 mg per kilogram of body weight, appetites decreased, liver cells became infected and bled...”

    So… not good for mice then. Strongly suggesting that if we take enough of it, it won’t be good for humans either.

    “This toxicity study shows that receiving pueraria mirifica for a long time can affect creation of blood cells in white rats. Consequently, if people want to take pueraria mirifica as pills, it is not recommended for a long periods of time, as it may affect the production of blood cells.”

    Please girls, if you want to feminise your body, rely on something that is supposed to be in your body. Plant oestrogen does not have the same effects as human oestrogen, and all of these phyto-products are undoubtedly toxic in high doses.
    In short, it will cost you a small fortune to poison your body and not get good feminisation.
    <p><span style="font-family: 'book antiqua', palatino; font-size: medium; color: #000080;">"Stop aspiring to be other people and start being you."</span></p> <p>Gok Wan</p>
      April 22, 2010 1:46 PM BST
  • And here are the results of the study Cris used as a reference, once again cited by the U.S. FDA.[...]162.pdf
    The first page is blank so make sure you scroll down, but this study tells you all and more than what you want to know about Pueraria mirifica.

    Thank you so much Cris for bringing up that study so the safety of this substance could be exposed. We will have to add Cris to the list of those here running herbal lovers off, lol.

      April 22, 2010 1:19 PM BST
  • Here is the 2003-2004 notification from the United States FDA questioning the safety of Pueraria mirifca. I'm sure to those selling this stuff these people don't know what they are talking about.[...]154.pdf


      April 22, 2010 12:49 PM BST
  • I note that from the ads on the Pheonix Site. Some of the products contain Pueraria Mirifica. This was also promoted by Anne Selene if I recall

    Authors: P. Sanchanta, K. Saenphet, S. Saenphet, S. Aritajat, C. Wongsawad
    Keywords: Pueraria mirifica, toxicity, rats

    This research was carried out to investigate toxic effects of aqueous and ethanolic extracts from Pueraria mirifica Airy Shaw & Suvatabundhu on male rats. Both extracts at the doses of 400, 600 and 800 mg/kg bw were orally given to male rats for 4 weeks. The kidney and liver functions, histopathological and hematological alterations, including micronucleus formation were evaluated. The effect on rat body weight was also observed. The results showed that both extracts of all doses used had no effects on the kidney and liver functions according to the normal values of blood urea nitrogen (BUN), creatinine (Crea), aspatate aminotransferase (AST) and alanine aminotransferase (ALT). However, histological alteration of both organs were observed in some rats treated with both extracts. Hematologically, total white blood cell count was not different from that of controls and differential cell count was normal, although lymphocytes and neutrophils in some treated rats was slightly different from those of control group. However, rats in all treated groups showed significantly lower packed red cell volume (PCV) than controls (p < 0.01) and their micronuclei in polychromatic erythrocytes (PCE) were significantly higher than those of controls (p < 0.05). These results revealed that both aqueous and ethanolic extracts of P. mirifica affected the red blood cell formation and also acted as a mutagenic agent. Furthermore, all treated rats had significantly lower body weight gain as compared to control (p < 0.01). It could be clearly concluded that the extracts from P. mirifica at the doses used in this study tend to be toxic to rats.

    Hardly seem like a product conjusive to the redistribution of body fats a process ideal for feminisation.

    What I do find amazing all the sites related to the Pheonix Project have Researched this formum and many other independant forums and picked out the glowing miracle claims, whilst none of the logical opinions and advice from people like Lucy and Marsha. The winner on one of their sites is From pecs to 32B in two hours, Do they do tyre pumps as well?

    Cristine Jennifer Shye.  B/L.  B/Acc
      April 22, 2010 11:06 AM BST
  • Wow girls!!
    This topic certainly triggers a few emotions.

    In the Red Corner, we have the Undefeated Champion from the Animal Kingdom wearing red "Mammalian Estrogens"
    And in the Green Corner, we have the Challenger from the Plant Kingdom wearing green "Phytoestrol Building Blocks"

    Personally, I am rooting for the fella in the Red Corner ... simply because I have seen him in action :)

    Three things come to mind in this fight,
    1) No matter who wins the fight, there always has to be a Doctor close by !
    2) Remember, each of these Guys has a "powerful left hook"
    3) Don't discount the Second the invisible Corner, his name is "Placebo Effect"

    All kidding aside ... see a Doctor, see a Psychologist, and ...see you in the "Winners Circle"
    <p>Doanna Highland</p>
      April 22, 2010 5:29 AM BST
  • Moderator
    1638 1‚ 0
    I do realise you didn’t write it Cris and know you wouldn’t intend anyone to think so, but thanks for posting it. It’s one of the most accurate pieces on the subject that I’ve ever come across.
    Oh and thanks, you're too kind, but apropos - "epitome"!
    Just to get it right...
    <p><span style="font-family: 'book antiqua', palatino; font-size: medium; color: #000080;">"Stop aspiring to be other people and start being you."</span></p> <p>Gok Wan</p>
      April 22, 2010 1:16 AM BST