Some good points there cris, but i for one do not look down on crossdressers & Transvestites....neither do i think i'm superior to them. Yes i'll look but when i do i just think " that was me not so long ago". Then i think just how far i have progressed since then......but then thats just me.



Lol XXXXXXXX
Anna-Marie

Cristine, I'm sorry if I'm in anyway implying that a TS is above a CD/TV. I was hoping I was making it clear that they were just different, like apples and oranges. I have absolutely no issues with CD/TV's as long as they don't hurt anyone. I also clearly understand there are various reasons why some choose to transition partially or fully, or even not at all. GRS is on my list of things to do but my list is long and just like you have mentioned, there are many factors that effect when and if things happen, for me my family comes first. As far as how do trannys act, I was trying to keep it simple with that statement but all I meant was going back and forth from being a guy to a gal.

I have many CD/TV friends and the last thing I want them to think is I look down on them. I truly don't. It is a small minority of CD/TV's that I don't like, the ones that do act outrageously, or act as sluts. I will be totally upfront with that. But most the gals are the best friends you could ever have.

And hugs Cristine because I know we can disagree on things but still be friends. I always enjoy reading what you have to offer here at TW.

Love,
Marsha

Well what an interesting thread. As a long term transvestite (I don't like all the labels) I feel the need to contribute, since so many of the contributors seem to be intent on changing gender completely. Like so many I started quite young, about 7 years old and therefore long before the arrival of puberty and the sexual element. This means I have been doing this for 55 years but at no time have I been even the slightest bit interested in transitioning. Only in recent months have I had the freedom & opportunity to spend a good deal of my time 'dressed', and while this time (still on-going) has been thoroughly enjoyable and has included my joining TW, I am frankly unaware of any antipathy in the chat room, where Cris knows I participate regularly. Twice in three months I have been 'hit on' by post op girls of the 'what's under the skirt variety' but I have put that down to those two having chips on their shoulders, and it has not coloured my enjoyment of the conversation & banter there.
I guess what I'm saying is that there's no black/white situation, more like a million shades of grey.
If I can spend an hour or two while dressed and share a joke or a laugh with anyone in the chat room with whom I have something in common (as against everything in common) then I will continue to do so. I am intrigued by the different parts of the spectrum therein, but I am equally intrigued by all varieties of the human condition.
What I do like most of all is the availability of such an outlet, allowing me to discuss openly subjects which was never possible before the internet.
A bit rambling I'm sure, and not as thought out & cohesive as many other posts, but I have broken my duck at least!

You've said it so very well Christine and covered the points so well. Personally, it matters not to me what a girl is or how she chooses to live, it's her life and no one can tell her how it should be lived. Whether a person undergoes SRS or not, either route is fraught with difficulties and emotional trauma that may never be resolved but they do what is best for them.

Nikki

Cristine - If I could, I'd adopt you as my daughter. You have a bright, sharp mind. Your thread speaks well of you and you echo my thoughts. Thanks
hugs
Gracie

I thought for a long time about whether it was wise to reply to this thread, but I think giving an objective point of view from a different side can help to expand peoples understanding.

I don't believe it's as clear cut as a caste system of transgendered identity, but more heavily tied to personal circumstance. In the public media transvestites are very commonly displayed in a very negative light, usually with a sexual fetish theme underpinning most views. I can well imagine why a transsexual person who is or has transitioned would not want to be associated with this image. While I would hope most transsexual people would be more understanding of people in similar circumstances to themselves, people can be very hypocritical when they want to be. This obviously doesn't account for cross dressers and transvestites who dress for non-sexual reasons, but sadly get labelled with the same public image as the rest.

This scenario is not unique to the transgendered community however. Muslims for example have had a negative media representation (and as a consequence, reputation) in the UK ever since 9/11. In reality it is probably less than 0.0001% of the Muslim community who are so convicted of there views as to use such extreme measures, however because some do, the rest are perceived as guilty by association.

I certainly don't believe transsexuals should look upon other members of the transgendered community as inferior, but I can certainly understand the ideology of why it might occur. I also think the driving factor as to why it occurs is not a superiority complex generated by 'more commitment' as some would suggest, but public image of the community as a whole and a wish to distance themselves from it.

Wouldn't it be nice if people weren't judged on face value...

-Sarah

I wonder sometimes if when a person has transitioned they feel the need to distance themselves from this community to align themselves with the 'real' women out there?

I have seen some girls act this way post op. I'm not condeming their behaviour if it is the case, indeed I fully understand why they would want to put their 'pre-op' life behind them. Perhaps seeing TV/CD's reminds them of where they once were and it stirs up a lot of emotions. Not all of them good.

Nikki

Has anyone heard this statement? When in Rome, do as the Romans do" Just maybe it applies here. If you want to be a tranny act like a tranny, if you want to be a woman act like a woman. Somehow I see those as two distinctly different activities. This is not to say you can't be a tranny before you realize you need to be a woman. But when the time comes to be that woman, life changes and it is no longer a party.
Hugs,
Marsha

Christine,

very,very true. A few years ago I had the dubious fortune to meet a tranny who had put his (her?) own development as 'female' before his wife and family.His wife was prepared to try and accept the dressing. However,when he decided he needed hormones to enhance his female side, she, not surprisingly, decided that this was too much. Following the inevitable divorce he/she seemed to spend most of the time moaning about how unfair his now ex-wife was, and how mean she was being at denying/frustrating his access to his beloved daughter. I can't honestly say I felt much sympathy for him/her...........In some ways his story strikes me as typically male behaviour.

Compromises are unavoidable,it seems to me, unless you happen to have favourable circumstances or.........you're an egoistical bastard! If partner,family etc are prepared to go the full distance with your realisation of your needs/desires......fine. If not, then you have to decide what is more important to you and realise yourself as far as possible inside the set limits.........and,in the course of time,these limits may prove to be slightly elastic...........Personally,I'd rather be a slightly frustrated tranny with job, family and friends than a fully transitioned, operated etc TS who has lost everything. But each to their own.....Pragmatism and realism are the names of the game.

ciao

Lynn H.

i would like to explain an additional way of looking at this topic...

I know we all hate labels but at the end of the day it makes it a lot easier to explain our general circumstances very quickly. The problem with labels is that all of a sudden all individuals’ identities are suddenly typecast. If we were to perceive people as individuals and completely disregard labels you would find a different set of circumstances. for example...

From my perspective, i class myself as TS...

I like, or am friends with, just as many transvestites as I am friends with transsexuals, simply because these individuals match my personality.

I dislike, or avoid, just as many transsexuals as I do transvestites, simply because these individuals do not match my personality.

If I were to dislike someone because they are in a different peer group then I could be missing out on a really good friend.

If I were to befriend someone simply because they were in the same peer group then I could be making friends with someone who is totally incompatible and disruptive to my happiness.

I suppose in a nutshell, if I felt that someone was superior to me then I would be seek treatment for my inferiority complex. Also, if i felt superior to anyone then I would seek treatment for my arrogance. After all, we are all equal individuals just with differing attributes.

Maybe I am waffling on but I really couldnt give any respect to anyone who snubbed anyone else simply because of their peer group.

Thanks Cristine and I know exactly what you are referring to with your example. I may actually know of a very similar situation where I suspect in a two preop gal relationship, one is actually a drag queen.

I was thinking another way to answer your question would be with a question. Suppose there is a CD hangout and you know from previous experience most if not all there are CD/TV's, few if any TS's. A friend who is a CD invites you to go along. How do you respond.

A. Enthusiastically grab your purse and go.
B. Feeling obligated because she is your friend, you reluctantly go.
C. Make up an excuse why you can't go.
D. Be up front and honest that you do not want to go there.

In general, because there are a lot of "what if's" you could tack on, I would choose "D" and not go. A similar experience for me is two of my friends always go to gay bars which is fine and dandy except I end up feeling like a lonely statue in the corner. I would feel similar in CD/TV club. Those situations are just not my cup of tea, I want to be treated as a woman when I'm out. Now a little get together with friends at a more neutral setting is more my speed. I love going out with my friend to straight bars and just talking with anyone who comes along.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is the people may be wonderful people, it is the activity that I am not enthusiastic about. I've had people say "You need to go, it is like one big party." Actually that is enough for me to not want to go.

Hugs,
Marsha

While this is a very good thread and the responses have all been excellent and well thought out, hence no one has gotten hot under the collar about what could be a touchy subject, I have to ask, 'why are we even having this discussion?'

There is so much bigotry in the world and we have our share of it too and yet even within our own community some people still feel the need to stick the knife in to another TG person. How sad is that?

So far though, this thread seems to have focused on TS's giving their answers. It would be nice to get some responses from TV/CD's to see how they actually feel too.

Nikki

Christine, I hope you didn't take my post in the wrong manner, I think this is a great thread, what I was inferring was that it's sad that we are discussing it because of some people's superiority complex. I have personally come across more bigotry online than I have in real life, how is that right? i get attacked more in my own community than I do on the street, and it is always because I am not intending to undergo complete transition, (for my own personal reasons).

I'm only glad that these people are in the minority, as we ought to be embracing all TG people, not putting our own labels on them and making them feel any less of a person.

Oh and Christine, you never talk crap!

Nikki

I just don't know what to think because reading through this and so many other posts here, so often many of the gals take a Its got to be either or attitude. It is right or wrong, yes or no, good or bad, and worse yet you either like them all or none of them. The fact of life is there is always a gray area. In politics you tend to have the extremist in both directions with the masses in the middle somewhere. The same thing applies here. There are some TA's here I can't stand. There are some CD/TV's here I can't stand. And there are even some TS's here I can't stand. I can only assume I am on some other gals lists of who they can't stand. But with that said, There are many TA's, CD/TV's and TS's that I truely consider friends. So if i'm blunt and tell someone they are wrong for a legitimate reason, does that make me bad? One way to look at that is to say better off not saying anything. But are you? Who is better off? Surely it is not the person who was told they were wrong. If they are not told the truth, how will they ever learn? How will they ever change their behavior? And if you say something to one CD/TV, how does that imply it is meant for all? That is the problem I see around here, comments meant for one are extrapellated out to mean everyone. That is just wrong.

And Nikki, the reason you get it more here then in the real world is simple, ANONYMITY. Some people love to toss out flames and stand back and watch the battle ensue. Atleast when I say something, I will make every effort to clarify my intentions of what I said.

Hugs,
Marsha

Ok I have read this all and all in 1 go as well. (yes i am very proud of myself) But i would like to point out a couple of points.

The 1st 1 is that gg can be sluts and can be outragous just as much if not more so then any transgender person they can also be a hell of a lot more bitchy (main cause they had more pratice).

The 2nd 1is that a lot of girl will go to where ever the atomphere is best and suits there mood. I go to trans friendly clubs as well as goth and metal clubs. I go to them cause i like the people there not cause there trans or cause there goths and it's the same if I go into a main stream club I go cause of the people. That is why a lot of people go to certain clubs cause they like the people there or the people they are going with. Both Cris and Marsha say they wouldn't want to go to a trans friendly club fine that is your choice but you have to think about it are the people in those places anyless likely to be fun then the people in a mainstream club. As isn't the reason to go out is to have fun?

If I like someone I like someone if I don't like someone I don't like someone don't matter who or what they are. And that what people forget it's down to personnel choice of who you like and don't like and how you see the world. It maybe wrong or it maybe right to see people that way. But it's down to you as a person. Not a community to make up there mind about them and if there a tv/cd or ts it should not matter as there all flesh and blood.

Ok incoherrant rant over. If anybody complain about the spelling get a life you know what i ment.

I agree completely with you Char. It sounds like your life incorporates a little of everything and that is great. What I said about TG clubs is just that I don't like the atmosphere, the people might be great, but I'm not the partying club type person. Quite possibly I am missing out on meeting some really nice TGs, but I have little interest in the club scene. It is quite likely reversed where many who like the club scene would not be interested in my activities. I certainly believe we could still be friends. And you will never hear me say "those people" implying everyone of a particular circumstance is good or bad. I try not to judge anyone upfront, and believe me, ever since being TS has become a more open part of my life, I know better than to prejudge anyone. However, with that said I must add some people give you a terrible first impression, ie., a TA who comes into the chatroom and sends you a PM with "ASL", or a TG who says "what color panties are you wearing". That crap doesn't have to go with the territory, I am a real person. Need I say more.
Hugs,
Marsha

Cris If a person dislikes someone then quite often they will belittle them and make them seem inferior and try and make themselfs look superior. And quite often they will do it to someone else who is in the same group of people. Taring the whole group with the same brush so to speak. Which brings me to the comment about bad first impressions which Marsha made. I completely agree with you and find it annoying as well when they do. But you have to ask the question what gave them the idea that tg people were like that? But then off topic again. But then again maybe not as if you have an exsperance like that then it could colour your opinon againts them and make you look down on them.

Marsha - it's not about anonymity, I state my opinion but try hard not to upset anyone when doing so. I could jump up and donw and shout about it but that's just not my way.

The problems have always been because of how I live my life, because it doesn't fit other peoples idea's of how a TS should be living and proceeding in their transition. It works for me so I really couldn't care what others think.

Christine - thankyou for those words, I don't quite know what to say (for once)!

Nikki

Nikki, that is not exactly what I meant about anonymity. An example of what I meant is that as far as you know I live somewhere in Savannah, GA with a few hundred thousand other people. Chances of us ever meeting is slim to none. Therefore, anything could be said knowing that there will not likely be any repercussions.

Our situations are easy because I believe both of us have been very honest about who we are and in various ways have proven our identity to others. However there are those with stealth lives that we can only assume are telling us the truth. So you only have a name to go with a statement not necessarily a person, so in a crowd of people you wouldn't have a clue which one actually said it. I hope that clarifies my comment on anonymity.

Now where we are different is if I feel justified in what I am saying, I don't care if it hurts someone's feelings. Being an appeaser only enables bad behavior to continue. Acting like a problem isn't there doesn't make it go away. I will also be honest and say I have said things that I later regret saying or other times used terrible wording allowing an entirely different meaning to be conveyed. I do try to correct those errors. You may laugh at this but numerous times I have typed a reply and deleted it because I thought it would not be in TW's best interest for me to post it. But if I feel strong about an issue, I will say it.

My favorite definition of appeaser:
appeaser
A noun
1 appeaser
someone who tries to bring peace by acceding to demands; "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile--hoping it will eat him last"--Winston Churchill

But what ticks me off the most is when I say something about a particular situation and someone else takes it out of context and applies it to everyone in a particular circumstance like being CD/TV. EXAMPLE: Just because I don't like the way (fill in the name)CD dresses, doesn't mean I don't like the way all CD's dress. When that happens, you can expect the worst of me to come out because it has happened to me too many times here at TW where everyone and I mean everyone jumped on the bandwagon to attack me for something I didn't say.

So personally I think the title of the thread is ridiculous because it just isn't a problem on a regular basis. There are individual situations where a TS might have an issue with a certain CD/TV or TA, but it is not a problem until SOMEONE ELSE takes it out of context and applies it to everyone. When that happens, you get the usual piling on. It has happened time and time again here.

Hugs,
Marsha

Hugs Cristine, after saying all I did that is not how I meant it as far as the title, bigtime sorry about that. Your title is fine, it was me and I was responding to the point in the first line of what you said about " TS's looking down on CD's" not the title of the thread. I think I had lost my train of thought when I did some editing. I remember something being wrong with exactly that point but obviously never changed it.

I do think it is a good topic even though I tend to disagree that it is a problem. Sure there are some TS's that look down on CD's, but I think that is an exception to the rule.

Hugs,
Marsha

Ok Lets have a bash at this one too............................................

I have read the thread every posting many good and valid points. Despite what we may like to believe I am afarid that there is people of the TS women pursuasion who especially after SRS may think they are either now better or above various people they may once have hung around with in their early days. I am refering not to this site in paticular or any other site but my own general observation out there over the years. Those such people have some issues and obviously think that the body makes the person.

My view is there are good people, stuck up people,people who need cliques or groups to belong to. Individualists strong enough to stand alone. The topic though usuing TS/TV as its basis for a division and within such groupings TV/CD there are sub divisions as in TS being Pre-Op and Post - OP. the reasons for the differences in stance will be different for the TV/CD than for the TS.

TV'S/ CD's The general view and concensus is that majority dress for sexual thrills and fun and games.
Dont shoot me I am reflecting the percieved and accepted views. This may be true but we know many who dress to allow their femanine side to emerge and for many a TS has been a route to allowing their true gender status to come through after years of repression. BUt it is also true that many TV's do dress for the sexual thrills and feel guilty after such acts. Its a spectrum but look at the number of members of TW and many other simerlar sites and I am afarid the majority of members join hoping to meet for one of sexual acts between consenting TV adults. This is not to say that there are not those seeking to be in touch and express their femininity but lets be honest such numbers are far less than the numbers of Tv's seeking sexual thrills.Now I confess that I do have some problems with this grouping /Type of transvestism. I find it kind of demeaning to women and is usually a reflection of a mans fantasy about how he finds women sexually attracting / turn on ...........the exggagerated high heels very over the top sexually provocative outfits. Now I dont deny that there are some Day 1 Females that dress and behave like this but they are in the minority. I am at least being honest here by saying in some ways I look down my nose at these types and find them reppelant..............But I also feel that everyone should be allowed to be themselves so its fine as long as I dont have to spend too much time at places where such types can be found. But that is the difference bewteen the TV / TS divide in my mind the only thing we have in common is the fact that we can be found wearing womens clothes.

Now I know that I may find some individuals that I like and some I cant stand in both the TV/TS camps which is what one should expect just beacuse someone is another TS that means nothing as I may hate them and them me as individuals.

Its a reflection of human nature. Looking for social groupings groups that we seek to belong too or not belong too. It is not a phenomina that is purely to be found within the Tg community find any sub grouping and you will find others who think that so and so is not as much as a ******** depending on a groups general view as to what constitutes the rules that apply to that grouping.


Its a shame but thats human nature for you. I judge a person on their nature and merits not by what their gender or social status is irrelivant to me.

I would have to agree with Sarah because she added one little caveat and that was distinguishing those at this site and outside of TW. As a general rule what I have seen is post-op gals eventually leave the TG scene and it is no different at TW. However I do believe those who come and stay at TW end up being gals who can associate with everyone. That doesn't mean they have to like everyone, but in a sense the ones who can't handle the wide spectrum here are left feeling isolated and leave on their own.

I for one enjoy the diverseness here at TW, it makes for far more interesting discussions. Sure occassionally there are disagreements, but when everyone agrees on everything there is nothing left to discuss, so that can be boring. In the end I just hope each is big enough to agree to disagree, move on and remain friends.

Hugs,
Marsha

I think that this discussion serves a purpose that has been overlooked. To someone just "coming out" and seeking understanding on the internet, it can be a valuable insight into why some people may seem to reject them and their lifestyle, no matter what group they are in.. It makes it clear that it is not something objectively "wrong" with them, but personal issues the other person has that are strictly subjective. This could smooth their path into socializing in our community and not being panicked by a few negative responses. This allows the individual to trust themselves in finding their true Self. This thread has made it clear that people differ in our community as much as they do in the non-TG/TS community....and that is normal, which is the point we really want to make to the rest of the world. Except in the regard to our brain not agreeing with our sex chromosomes, we are like anyone else....which is to say we are all individuals and not exactly like anyone else. A discussion does not need to reach an agreement to be valuable to others.

WOW Wendy, I think that is the first time I have ever agreed with you 100% and willing to admit it, lol. But you are absolutely right that we are individuals and we should not be trying to make everyone conform to our beliefs. Just that everyone needs to understand there are differing opinions out there and often that is a good thing.
Lots of Hugs,
Marsha

Well, Marsha,
I'm not sure anybody else has EVER agreed with me 100% before. I find it interesting that TW sent me TWO identical notifications of your post. That has never happened before either. Makes a person wonder........

Hugs, Wendy

Gawd I have been reading all the threads its a shame that some not all see us trannys as over the top peeps looking for there next act of sex. Im sure that this happens in all lifes. everyone is differant be it cd tv ts. Cristine and Sarah have said , look at the person not what they are, and thats what we should all do. I get on with most peeps not all thats life lol. We are only here once so make the most of it we really all are sisters. The world would be a nicer place for it if we did. just take a leaf out of Cristine and Sarahs book. Jane. x

'Our' T-World is nothing more than a microcosm of the big, bad(?),world outside.Just as,outside,there are those who consider themselves by virtue of birth,school,university,bank account/share options,who they know,etc. etc. to be able to look down upon the common masses, so there are T-Girls who ,by virtue of 'the Op',-"performed by Dr. A----,anyone else is just a butcher....."-consider themselves to be something 'better'.For some of them,in the figurative sense,corpses line their path- family,friends etc. I hope I'm wildly wrong here but, resulting from some proposed amendments to the Transsexual Law in Germany which were made ,a good few years ago now, by some T-Girl or other, I have the impression that some of this 'snobishness' is a mask for a massive chip on someone's shoulder: - a T-Girl who has burnt all her bridges,spared no cost on HRT,FFS,SRS,and still doesn't feel socially accepted looks down on a T-Girl who,for whatever reason,has turned down one or more of the treatments on offer and yet is socially integrated,accepted etc. etc. as a WOMAN-whether full-time or not. I have to add that the proposed change was on the lines of - ' SRS to take place inside a year following the 2 year real-life test.Should the SRS not take place, the patient reverts to the status quo ante i.e. reverts to his/her original,biological, sex..............' Just savour the prospect and the ramifications for a minute..... To my mind,only someone with a massive chip on their shoulder could dream up something like this. Luckily the idea disappeared without trace.In the support-group I belonged to at the time there was a lot of head shaking over this.

Otherwise? Well,if we're all honest with ourselves,in whatever walk of life we find ourselves we've almost certainly crossed the paths of people who've left us thinking-"there ,but for the grace of God, go I............"

ciao

Lynn H.

Wow Lynn, that is just too wild. I had never heard about that crazy idea of forcing those transitioning back if they didn't complete a full transition within a given time. OMG! The other crazy stuff like specific dr.'s and of course you must have SRS I have heard numerous times over the years. Now I have always avidly expressed myself that we should blend with society, yet I would never advocate mandatory procedures or behavior. For that matter I am anti HBSOC or now to sound more official the WPATH Standards of Care. I often feel some believe I look down on various tg groups and I disagree with that idea. I don't see anyone as lesser or even better, I see them as different and I believe there is a huge difference between the two. I do believe "some" individual behavior in one group can adversely effect another group. Again, that is individual behavior, definitely not everyone within a group.
Hugs,
Marsha

I wonder if there would have been any legal recourse if you wanted SRS and they could not supply it in the proper time frame. Is there a money back guarantee or something. I bet whoever came up with that crazy idea really patted themselves on the back for that one. Makes you wonder what else they have suggested. They probably suggested the caution label on my Skintimate shaving gel that says "Discard can upon rusting." There are things I haven't done in awhile that i'm kind of rusty at, are they talking about me? Obviously they are talking about the can but isn't tossing it already a given? And if the can has been around long enough to rust, don't you think the person has other issues?

Back to what Cristine said about boob size, what if one was large enough and the other was just under, do you get any credit or do you face a mandatory scalpal? And omg, what about those hair challenged gals. Does having too much of a receding hairline or being bald actually mean you were never meant to be a woman in the first place? And if you didn't have SRS because you couldn't get a surgeon in time, what makes them feel they could find a surgeon for the required masectomy in a reasonable time, or mabye just train that person to do SRS?

And finally bringing this back to the original topic. CD/TV's, you are so lucky you don't have to deal with the controlling idiots many of us TS's face during our transition. So smile, be happy, enjoy what you are doing and say thank god I don't have to deal with that crap.

Hugs,
Marsha

Christine,

The 'Transsexual Law' here in Germany lays down guidelines,amongst other things for change of name, and therefore only applies to german nationals. The EU has nothing to say here.Interestingly,the german constitutional court recently nullified the clause requiring married couples to divorce since the legalisation of same-sex marriages had made it obsolete.

I've just amused myself by trying to imagine what a TG 'caste system' might look like.................................................................

The 'primary' TS looks down the nose at the 'secondary' TS,and both of them look down their noses at the TS who doesn't want SRS.All three look down their noses at the CD,and all four look down on the TV.All five then look down on the fetishist.All six of them look down on she-males and anyone else in the sex industry.................................................

This is all of the top of my head so I'll be interested to see the comments,amendments etc etc.

ciao

Lynn H.

I've been holding my tongue on this for a bit, to give this thread time to really develop, and it's been very interesting. Now, however, as a nod to my job as a forum moderator (not administrator) I would like to point out that the CD's can "look down" on TS. As sole evidence for this statement I submit this link.

http://www.tri-ess.org/

"An international social and support group for heterosexual crossdressers, their partners, the spouses of married crossdressers and their families."

This organization, which performs a valuable service to the TG community, was set up in such a way as to make it clear that it's members, while wishing at times to dress en femme, were in no way "gay" or "transsexual". Such transgendered persons are clearly excluded from membership by the above description.

My point is....even if SOME TS persons view CD's as "lesser" or as unclean in some way, clearly this feeling also goes the other way, at least in the case of this organization. Let's be fair. An openly TS person would never make it past the initial, private interview for membership according to the organization's self-proclaimed statement of purpose. Now I have heard that this is not always true in actuality, and it's not an attack on those of our sisters who strongly feel the need to maintain a high degree of secrecy and a clear distinction as to their proclivities. "I like to wear a lovely frock as much as the next man but I'm not the slightest bit gay." Lord knows, I had been with the terrified-someone-will-find-out group most of my life. I applaud those T-Girls for pushing their limits of comfort in joining Tri-Ess. I merely want to point out that people feel a certain way and they are entitled. It is when those feelings impinge on the rights of others that I object. Live and Let Live. Stay out of my vegetable garden even if you believe everyone should be a carnivore. (Before I get dinged for THAT, let me say I am a big supporter of predatory animals as part of a balanced eco-system and I admire vegetarians for their efforts in living by their beliefs....just leave my hamburger and beef-tallow-fried, large-cut, french fries alone.)

Wendy,
whilst not wishing to takes sides for or against Tri-Ess,I think it's necessary to remember that,like the Beaumont Society in the UK,Tri-Ess was formed,I believe,in a time when to be gay really was socially beyond the pale for most people,and in most places even illegal.I think the Beaumonts have arrived in the 21st century,whereas it would seem that Tri-Ess is still struggling to get beyond,say,1968!You in the US obviously know much more about your prevailing social climate than I do,but I would suggest that it's up to you(collectively) to drag Tri-Ess,kicking and screaming if necessary,into 21st century reality.

Have a nice day!

Lynn H.

Wendy, and Lynn....
I'd be a little hesitant is condemning Tri-ess as "looking down at TS's". I am not a member of Tri-ess myself, but am definitely a heterosexual CD, with no pretensions to ever transition. But there is a need for an organization that is just for non-TS CD's, I think. Trannyweb here is enough for me, and I get a lot of ideas, helps, and information from this website. But you must admit that the general emphasis of Trannyweb is for TS members, with CD's the minor players, so to speak.
I imagine Tri-ess is a group where members can discuss dressing, behavior, and activities without having to sift through lots of input about hormones, SRS, transitioning, etc.
As a CD, yes, I feel like a minor member of Trannyweb, because much more than half of the information and discussion here has nothing to do with my situation. When dressed, I feel like a woman, but never other times. I am happy to share my experiences with others, but since I am an absolute part-timer, most TS's don't have much interest in my input. There are probably many CD's who feel the same way, so it's ok for them to have their own club, don't you think?
If the Gay community belittled Trannyweb for not including gays who don't crossdress, wouldn't you think that was a little unfeeling? Come on, just let's all live and let live! I will continue to read the great discussions here in the forum, but I won't try to change the aims of anybody else's organization if they find it suits them.

Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukkah, and Enjoyable Holiday Season to Everyone!

Karin