Lynn, your comment

"but I would suggest that it's up to you(collectively) to drag Tri-Ess,kicking and screaming if necessary,into 21st century reality'

does a great job explaining the differences between Europe and the United States. The freedom we have in the U.S. is the ability to speak with our support and dollars. Should they continue to do things that their members don't like, then they will simply lose members and cease to exist. Why drag them anywhere? Nobody is forced to be a member and there are various other TG organizations that meet various needs.

Wendy did a great job describing Tri-Ess. Recently we had a member of Tri-Ess here at TW who was a very nice gal, but she constantly stated the party line which got old really fast. There was a rule for everything. Now some people like having all that structure in what they do, but others including many here have stated they want the freedom to be themselves. Personally I think the world is big enough for all of us. And as I said before, we are not better, we are different.

Hugs,
Marsha

I've loved following this thread. It's nice to see a healthy conversation where we can disagree without bitterness, but really try to understand one another.

I'm not sure where I stand on all of this since my own personal confusion seems never ending. Here's one thing I do envy about TS's--their certainty. They know who they are and have the courage to act on that.

A long time ago, when I first decided to try to grapple with some of my own issues, I read Jan Morris' ground breaking book Conundrum about her own transition. I think that may have been the first personal account of transsexuality by a polished professional writer. I haven't gone back to it in a long time and know some of you find it quite dated, but it was an important book for me.

What I remember most about it was Morris' description of gender as not a divide, but a continuum, and that each of us has to find our place on it. That resonated with me then and still does. In that sense, the difficult with the question of how one group sees the other is the implicit assumption that there are two distinct groups--CDs on one side, TSs on other. I don't see it that way. I would even argue, at least from my own personal experience, that each person's place on that continuum is not static. I know I shift around all the time. (If you see me lurking here, you can make a good guess what end of the spectrum I'm on that day!) I suppose that's another way of saying what Wendy already said so well.

I guess I decided to post here following some of the latest threads, then, that arrive at the central tenet of how we ought to view/treat one another. We are all human beings, by definition flawed, but worthy of one another's respect. If we don't try to understand one another, empathize with what each of us is going through, who else will?

hmm, i never heard of tri-ess before. I will apply to become a member.

I am a member of ASBAH. Not that I have spina bifida but I like to contribute and support the efforts the organisation makes. I wish to do the same for tri-ess. If I am not made welcome the I guess I will sue them for discrimination. I trust the US laws will uphold me claim.

Sorry Penny it doesn't work that way. Private organizations that don't take federal money have the right to exclude whoever they want. For example, the Boy Scouts of America can and do exclude homosexuals, athiests and agnostics. In June 2000, our U.S. Supreme Court ruled that private groups have a constitutional right to expressive association. The First Amendment to our constitution gives us the right of free speech and freedom of association.
Hugs,
Marsha

that seems to make sense but causes me great concern. at which point does the freedom of association become discrimination? an association should be a group of people who wish to be together for a comon goal and in a unprejudice world anyone should be able to join that association. i believe the freedom of association is just another name that gives license to discriminate. besides, how can anyone put their faith into an organisation with such ethics as to discriminate homosexuals, athiests and agnostics. its not exactly christian is it! what low quality peope must these organisations attract and manufacture? personally i would look for a more christian organisation.

It really is a catch 22 Penny. On one hand we believe there should not be discrimination, but on the other hand we do see the need for gals like us to be able to get together and share our experiences without disruption by those not like us. You brought up christians and sadly many stereotype all christians as being the same. My church welcomes homosexuals and "me" so how do you think I feel about gals who make open statements attacking christianity because they believe christians don't accept us. The fact is some do and some don't. So just like the original topic, it is wrong to stereotype all CD/TV's one way, just as it is wrong to stereotype all churches or associations as being bad. YES THERE ARE BAD PEOPLE AND BAD CHURCHES, BUT THERE ARE ALSO GOOD PEOPLE AND GOOD CHURCHES. The same goes for TG's. What is so silly here is you get some gals saying how we should be accepted and yada yada yada, the next words out of their mouths are this or that is bad. Isn't that the difinition of hypocricy?

Penny I don't want you thinking I'm picking on what you said, I'm just continuing on from what you said with some of my ideas. You made great points.

Though this is unusual for me this thread has grabbed my attention so I want to tell everyone a little sorry.

I had spent many years pulled away from the CDer’s and TV’s as I really did believe that no matter what they were there to drag me in to a world of fetish and outrageous over effeminate actions that I did not want to be around. Well in 2005 I was at SCC helping with the event and I was asked to help with some clerical work sorting forms and things. Well anyhow I walked into the room and I was confronted by this CD in business dress and the highest pair of spikes I had seen in quite a while (in my mind I was like omg here we go again) but smiled in a nice way and started to work and talk to her. Well after an hour or so we started to talk personal and out of my mouth pop an awful question “why do you do it are you crazy or something” she look at me in horror; but she started to tell me way more than I ever thought I would hear. And then the similarities started to flow out of her. I have to admit I was stunned she too had, had many of the same bad things happen in her life as a CD as I had, had being TS our interest were similar as was our tastes (well all but the dress sense). We carried on talking for hours as we worked feverishly to get back down to the event. At some point we both admitted that we did understand why we both dislike each other’s camp so to say and until that day had really never bothered to find out why. We came to understand that our prejudices were ingrained in us because we did not really fit in each other’s world so we never gave it a chance. But we had opened each other’s eye during that day and made a packed to give everyone a chance and if we did not like a person so be it but at least we would give them a chance. Now I can truly say I have friends from all walks of life and I am not ashamed of any of them and if they want to dress up in a spikes and a mini or any outrageous style to go shopping then so be after all I have been stared at before. If I like the person I will not be ashamed of them for any reason.

so as i say "don't try just be happy with who you are"

marsha, hun, i never said all christians are the same, as usual, it is the minority of the group which spoil it for the rest. i just threw in the "unchristian" bit because it is imoral, unethical and above all totally unchristian for the boy scout group to exclude atheists and agnostics. its a very confusing and twisted message they are sending out, personally, if i were looking for a christian organisation, i would look for one with a more christian ethics and morals.

and the first ammendment? giving the right to freedom of association? to me that just leagalises discrimination and is complete unethical and imoral. after all isnt that what hitler did with the jews? "i dont like your group so ya not in our gang!"

sarah, lovely story hun, i think a lot of people are now realising that there is just as much prejudice between TVs and TSs than with the outside world. Once everyone realise to treat people as individuals and not representatives of the group then everyone will find friends they didnt have before.

Eileen,
Thanks,I have read the TSG,but it was a few years ago now and my copy must have filed itself in the waste paper basket in the meantime. As far as I am aware, the Government still hasn't got around to reviewing tie workings of the TSG so that the mad idea I referred to must lie,oh,at least 15 years in the past now!

Ciao,
Lynn H.

Penny, that is precisely why I added in that last sentence about not picking on you. I had no problem with what you said, I was just taking that topic further. I was just making the point there are good and bad in all walks of life.
Hugs,
Marsha

Hi Cristine,

I've read this thread from beginning to end and I have some reactions (as a TV/CD) to it, but I'm not sure anyone would be interested since it would be long on my personal experience as well as my reactions to some of the points made which some people might not like.

Don't want to bore or anger anyone...
Melody

Hi Cristine.
This is a great thread! it is actualy the best one i have read since i have been here so well done girl for tackling it the way you have .
Julia .

This IS a really good thread and an interesting topic. I even managed to cringe at some of my contributions. However, I still stand by my belief that the freedom of association is legalised discrimination. I wouldnt be surprised if there was an organisation in US called "The white persons club" and no black people were allowed to join because they have the right to have freedom of association and exclude black people.

Anyway, lol, Crissie mentioned a subject relationship to the "man in a frock" thread (another really good thread to read) so I have taken the liberty to post its url...

http://gendersociety.com/[...]402823&

much love
Penny
X

Penny
It's called the KKK

Karen, Is the KKK a legal organisation in the eyes of the law in US? If it is then shouldnt Al Quaeda and communism also have legal representation in US? After all, it is their freedom of association to exclude the american dream? Karen, this is off topic so if you wish to start another thread maybe we could start a debate on equality, I will read your next post here but I wont post on this subject on this thread again xxx

interesting penny, on discrimination. I was in Hippo club in Baltimore one night, 12 trannys and about 200 gay guys (Simon was VERY cute), girl joined our little tranny table and 2 US girls said "we don't want her with us""....she was black...i was appalled. KKK is alive and well even up north, even amongst our girls.

Penny
To my knowledge they aren't an openly political organization - although they support some candidates.
They can get arrested if they wear their hoods in public - masks are "agin-the-law" hereabouts.
Don't ask me how/when/whatever but they have alligned themselves with the "American-Nazi Party."
IMHO the land of the free is also the land of the weirdo.
Seems as if, here in Texas, they stay pretty much in the larger cities.
I saw them march in Atlanta, GA back in the 60's.
Marsha could probably comment on their activity in Savannah, GA.
hugs
Gracie

Fancy that you happen to mention that Gracie. It just so happens this weekend there is a KKK rally a mere hour and a half drive from my home here in southeast Georgia. I happen to have a LGBT potluck fund raiser event I will be attending tomorrow evening that will keep me from attending the rally, lol. But for anyone interested here is a news story on the event: http://www.wtoctv.com/Glo[...]1991279
Otherwise I can't say I have heard much about their activity in the area, but it doesn't surprise me they exist close by. As my psychologist says, Savannah happens to be the buckle of the bible belt. Like other extremists, the KKK likes to interpret the Bible to fit their ideology.
Hugs,
Marsha

Not to get too far off the thread title, but I must chime in briefly. The KKK, that despicable group, actually consider themselves to be a true American organization, protecting "good ol' American values and institutions."

What I want to know is if they are so smart, why do they wear dunce caps?

Anyway, back to the thread.

While today a lot of people associate the Klan with the South, historically when they were at their most powerful in the 1920's and into the 1930s, the largest part of their membership was in the Midwest.

I can remember as a small child returning from a vacation with my parents driving at night through the farmland outside Bakersfield, California and seeing a huge KKK rally complete with bonfires and a very large burning cross on top of a hill. This would have been in the mid 1950s.

Best,
Melody

Umm I only posted that as a joke in reply to penny's comment about a white group that doesn't allow blacks.

Where does discrimination begin and end? If you cannot understand this then you cannot end it. There is a reason for everything even the KKK. It is alright to carry your liberal heart on your sleeve because we are all decent gals aren't we. Really, have you read some of the other forums. It is no good crying into the wilderness. Many people think we are perverts and a danger to society. That may even be the majority view. Don't be taken in by the smiles and the weasel words. It is what they say behind your back. To distinguish between ts and cd is stupid and lame brain. Much like any political party our community has to be a broad church. To discuss such issues will ultmately divide us and make us easy prey for our enemies of which there are many. Some may find this distasteful to be associated with those who indulge in gay sex or are exhibitionist drag queens, but we are all outside the box pissing in. Don't allow your liberal values to drown you. It is alright to hate just don't let it blind you.

I'm sorry to say that I had a bad view of CD's when I first started going part-time and then shortly after, full-time. Funny enough, as I started passing better and better until I went stealth, Cd's bothered me less and less. Strange, that. *wink*

Zoey

As long as your happy at what you do thats all thats important. I could never really understand the differance between the two. I guess the transsexual feels more internal feelings that they were born this way. While a cd just wants to feel what its like for a woman. Its hard sometimes to figure out the differance, It varies from person to person:)

I have found this interesting and quite informative. I am not sure where my feelings lie on this. I haven't began transiting and maybe never will. I hate the boxes we seem to have to fit. I like having boobs, but maybe that's it. I want to be a she male, tranny, but I think these terms are a bit non pc what I gather not allowed. I thought i got it sorted till I came here ( I love it here) but now not sure. It seems to me that one can't be a full time she male, but has to be transiting TS or be a stay at home cd. It doesn't seem to be I can just be me - maybe I can within the safe confines of the internet, but not outside. I have to be in one of these boxes, but which box do I fit, or want to fit? I do feel that TS is more acceptable as someone is diagnosed and given help maybe? Also TS are probably spending a lot more money, and making more of an commitment. Maybe not for some. I am just very confused now. I think it's society that encourages people to think they are further ahead (not better) with diagnoses and having a goal centred approach, rather than just allow people to be people, and accept whatever.

Hello - my name as I call myself these days is Briana - a label I have chosen for myself. I suspect there are many responses on here that have many of the ideas I'll note, but I thought I'd add to the discussion on TS - TV - CD - etc. To me these are labels for others ( doctors, people in everyday society, people who need a label ) because no matter the situation a person is just the person that she ( maybe he ) sees herself ( himself ) as and that is it. The best way to find out about that person is to ask her ( him ) to introduce herself ( himself ) and address how she ( he ) wishes to be known. Unfortunately labels give people the opportunity to label and judge others - I find that pretty shallow. Each person has a multitude of dimensions - I am, for example, a person with degrees in physics, English, and accounting separtely and can converse on topics in math, literature, science, et al and I suppose many of you have many dimensions as well. Do any of these or other dimensions determine my gender identification? No. I see myself as a woman and that is that. using the conventional labels, I am pre-op not on HRT ( as of yet to both ) TS. Interesting to note about 'women' and 'men' when it comes to categories of thinking - can one really say how distinct each is in terms of thought? Imagine you are in total darkness on an island and you sense of touch only registers touching other objects and not yourself - oh, and by the way, there are no others there. Now the question : Are you a woman or a man? The answer is how you see yourself, wish to present yourself, want others to acknowledge and accept ( when off the island, of course ). Regardless of lables, ask the person what she thinks of herself - and in my case, I am a woman. The only time 'judging' others has any real use is when someone is either doing good things for onself and others or when they are not and are destructive for whatever reason they have wrongfully chosen. All other forms of 'judging' are opinions and nothing more. Thanks, Briana : )

I have not read this thread because it is to long and I have not got the time , but I am going to put my personal thoughts here on this subject. (Just removed this bit as a promise was made last week) A CD is no different to me because a CD /TV is a human being just as I am .

 

 I will be honest as I always am and say I do not understand the sexual enjoyment some CDs or TVs gets from dressing as a woman but I do like the fact that a male can express their feminine side.

 

 I have seen in my life some very beautiful TVs and CDs and I have to admit I envy them in some way for being able to look so gorgeous "but" looks are not everything in a person its the personality that counts. Some may envy Sheryl Cole as a woman! I don't as I have been in the same room as her and believe me she has no personality at-all. In front of a camera she puts on an act for all to see.

 

 I would like to see a world where we are all equal but I and none of you will its just not going to happen. I am going to take this a step further in my case. I have recently joined again'st my nature a trans dating site as I was alerted to a police officer on there and I have already had him repromanded once as he prays on trans girls , I now have the evidence I need which has been emailed to the person needed to deal with him once and for all hopefully. But being on that site I have struck up an online friendship with a CD and to be honest that person is a very thoughtful careing person with a personality.

 

 I will be leaving that site now as I have the evidence I need but I will stay in touch with that person as a friend. If I was thinking about getting involved with someone (which I am not) That person would be a good candidate for who they are not what they are. I have mentioned in previous threads about being ashamed of being transgender. That means all in that group of labels. No person should ever be ashamed of being yourself.

 

 I buy shoes from shoe shops , I have size 9 feet but I like to try them on before I buy them so online is out of the question same with clothes. The manageress has told me a certian man goes into that shop and picks a pair of size 11 womens shoes puts them on the counter without speaking then as soon as the security tag is removed puts the exact money on the counter and runs out of the door.

 

 I find that sad in todays world. He is obviously either a CD or TV because he has facial hair unless we now have TS's with facial hair , I don't think a TS would be able to live a true female life with facial hair though because any TS will tell you it is the worst thing you can look at in the mirror.

 

 On that site I mentioned . They call CDs hairy pantie wearers! Oh they must itch something terrible . Imagine hairs in your knickers . Seriously though its an awefull term to use.

 

 In my life I have come accross all kinds of people and for all of their different labels to me they are all humans and we should treat them all with the same respect .

 

 Also in my life I have passionatly kissed females and although I spent 23 years with one it realy does nothing for me . I have also passionately kissed a male and it done a bit more untill his hand went straight between my legs then I pushed him away . He was well aware what was there.

 

 To sum this up I believe if there were a person I would have ever got involved with (excluding my 23 year mistake)  I honestly think a CD or TV would be a perfect partner and here is the reason why.

 

 They look at things from both sides of the coin or should I say gender. I think that is a quality most of us TS's can never have , being able to experience two genders . Ok we started off as males but never thought as one in mind. CD/ TV / TS All 3 are human beings and I for one would never look down on the first 2 just because I am TS . There are a few TS's who have their heads so far up their own rear end I often wonder how they see where they are going. Julia.

This post was edited by Former Member at January 14, 2013 4:42 AM GMT