September 8, 2009 11:29 AM BST
This thread will run and run...........!!
If this thread is getting silly this is down to some people apparently having problems with nasty little facts and realities which contradict their view of the world.We all know if we're honest,-on both sides of the Atlantic-,that the world of politics,justice and intelligence agencies,especially when they work together, is nowhere as squeeky clean as we'd love to believe.In the US you've had Watergate,Contragate etc etc,in the UK we've had numerous justice scandals where evidence was blatantly withheld,manipulated and so on ,with the result that innocent people were sent down for life.There were occassions when it seemed that having an irish accent and being stopped by the police for drunken driving was enough to get you a life sentence as an IRA bomber!
To Lockerbie(yawn....)..and no,Marsha,this is not conspiracy theory-this all came out in court!
1:Two Libyans were charged with the Lockerbie bombing on the basis of an identification obtained by the CIA through bribery of a person known to be a corrupt and compulsive liar.
2:Surprisingly(!) ,the court rejected this persons testimony-lock,stock and barrel.This resulted in the total collapse of the case against the second suspect who was consequently released.It also made the continuation of the case against El-Megrahi ridiculous since it meant he would have had to have been acting alone....................
3.El-Megrahi was demonstrably NOT on Malta on the date the case and clothing were purchased.
4.He WAS on Malta on the date the case with the bomb is supposed to have left the island,as unaccompanied luggage,by plane to Frankfurt and on to London.
5.An earlier court case brought by Air Malta had already established that there was NO unaccompanied case on the flight in question to Frankfurt, and that NO passenger or luggage was booked onwards to London from Frankfurt.Every case that went on the flight in Malta was collected in Frankfurt by its respective passenger.
So,where does this leave us?
El-Megrahi was sentenced to life for buying a samsonite suitcase and clothing-in person-from a shop on Malta when he wasn't on the island,and further,putting said case as unaccompanied luggage on a flight to Frankfurt with transfer to London although it had already been proved in another court that no such unaccompanied luggage was on the flight in question and that all the luggage was accompanied and accounted for.
FACIT: El-Megrahi was apparently sentenced to life imprisonment for merely being on Malta on the date in question!
Lest we forget-being employed by the intelligence agency of your country is not,in itself, a criminal offence.
Christine-been doing your homework?It was,possibly with good reason,felt that a free and fair trial would not be possible in Scotland or the USA-therefore the fictive Scotland in Camp Zeist,NL.The judges could have gone for 'Not proven'-but preferred to go the whole hog.
have a nice day,girls'n'boys,
Lynn
September 8, 2009 11:57 AM BST
I conclude reading in depth, that both the USA and the UK were dertermined to get a result, irregardless of the facts, the inducement of $2M dollars paid to Tony Guaci the star witness by the US goverment did'nt exactly promote the search for the truth, Another point raised was the shooting down of an Iranian civil airliner over Iranian air space was the root cause, the bomb on the Lockerbie flight being originally promoted and sponsored from Iran in retaliation. Iregarless of Mgrahi suffering Cancer one has to consider why he was not released on appeal on the flimsy evidence and the inducements given at the time,
Perhpas the compasionate release on grounds of ill health was a face saving exercise for the inept and inacurate evidence presented at the time.
What Sanctions or threats were made against the Libyans at the time to offer up the two defendants? After the shooting down of the Iranian civil airliner, The USA could hardly be in a position on the world political stage to threaten Iran, so was Liybia involved with Iran in a cover up. I don't think we will ever know, A case of justice was seen to be done. at the time.????
Cristine
September 8, 2009 12:35 PM BST
Can I make the point that in Muslim thinking anyone not Muslim is Infidel so enemies such as Iran and Libya will forget their differences and join together against the Infidels while still taking any opportunity to harm each other. It's not Libya against the world its the Muslim world against the Infidel World...so that muddies things up and if we add in some CIA stirring over oil and arms trading then who knows what the truth is and was.
And Muslim is the excuse for the guy remaining in prison rather than constantly protesting his innocence and bringing his country and by extension the Muslim world into conflict? Muslims can blank off today in order to get Paradise tomorrow whiel we Infidels take today and blank off the Paradise that is ours the moment we die. (do not get into argument with me over this or I'll have to tell you to get some Semtex and go blow up every religious artefact in your area.)
Re the point of law about holding the trial in neutral country... this is purely a ploy to try ensure no civil unrest or harassment of witnesses and official. Exactly the same happened in the next town to me when some Muslim robber/murderers were tried for killing a policewoman. As the town has a very big Muslim population the trial was moved right up England to an area where the population is much closer to 100% White English or White European or Black African - all of whom have no love for Muslims.
Re the point of law about no juries... right now in London a gang of vicious robbers are being tried by a single judge after two previous trials collapsed after the jury were 'tampered with' by offers of cash, beatings, etc...as the gang had so much influence and many contacts the identity and safety of jurors could not be guaranteed so the seldom used rule of 'no jury trial' had to be invoked in order to see justice done. Prosecution and defence lawyers will have to give the stark facts without making any appeals or influencing remarks to a jury and the judge has been chosen to examine all the facts and decide if they add up to and he can say Guilty or Not Guilty.
September 8, 2009 6:45 PM BST
Christine,
the authorities managed to get the release through before the appeal could really get going.Saturdays Gaurdian had an interview/article with a barrister,Michael Mansfield,and besides confirming what I've tried to get over in this thread he also had some comments to make about the aborted appeal.There is also the aspect of El-Megrahi's health to consider,since the appeal would almost certainly have been dragged out with interminable legal wrangling.
ciao
Lynn
September 8, 2009 7:25 PM BST
Lynn
This is getting away realy from the original point, the ''Release on compassionate grounds, or the rot in Jail till he died'' agenda, but I find this realy intriuging, the subtefuge and inside dealing etc, that seemed to have gone on. Is there any chance that he was released on purpose before another appeal got under way, the authorities fearing egg on face syndrome with further revelations that have leaked out or become knowledge since the original trial? Better to be seen as compassionate wimps as opposed to blantant liars and perjurers. So intent on a result by public demand and foreign pressures than a truthful and open trial. I realy don't see that the trial convened as it was, with no jury etc, would have been fair wherever it was held, the fact we exported Scotish justice to a foreign country was imaterial as to location. It could have been held on the moon from what I have read, would have made no difference to the outcome. But saying that I think from the little I know that the Scotish Trial system is one of the fairest and safest in the world, with having a 3rd verdict. If left to judge and reach a verdict without undue pressures.?
Cristine.
Perhaps I'm letting my imagination run away with me.
To me it would seem there is more here than the best thought up novel. Truth being stranger than fiction?
September 8, 2009 8:22 PM BST
Christine
there are people who see it that way,and I did mention in an earlier posting this very possibility-rather a couple of days of awkward comments and staged annoyance than a long drawn out series of extremely embarrassing revelations.(so long ago now-back near the start I think).
Rose,
The muslim angle is interesting but I don't think I'd put too much weight on it.I feel you're looking at from the perspective of 2009 whereas i think we have to try and put ourselves back to 1988/1989-which is when Lockerbie happened and the investigation started.I also think that,no matter what The Koran says,as we've seen in Iraq,muslim solidarity tends to have a confessional aspect-basically Shia against Sunni.Over in Libya,Gaddafi was trying to play the socialist rather than the islamist.
Way back....suspicion fell on Iran and a radical Palestinian group- PFLP-GC Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command,a basically Marxist-Leninist orientated group based in Damascus,Syria,that had achieved a degree of notoriety through hi-jackings and so on.Whatever the precise relationship with Iran was,various PFLP groups in Europe were rounded up,either just before or not long after Lockerbie.In Frankfurt,for example,the police found 5 bombs of the type used for Lockerbie-the person who made them has been reported as saying that he made 6........if so,one bomb went AWOL.........Other Palestinians arrested in Sweden and Yugoslavia apparently gave very pertinent information as to events on Malta. Later on,athe German news magazine 'Der Spiegel' had an interview with an Iranian who told them how the bomb was transported to Heathrow and by who.By the time this appeared however,the investigators were trying to fit Libya into the picture instead of Iran,Syria and the PFLP and so it was never followed up.
Personally,viewing the whole,stinking,can of foetid worms that the Lockerbie story is,the release on compassionate grounds was absolutely correct and was the only act of fairness and justice in the whole sorry tale.Better late than never.
Lynn
September 8, 2009 10:05 PM BST
That said, and they are all good points, the international world of espionage and agents usually follow a code that keeps them alive unless they cross over the line so to say...so while maybe El-_whatever-hisname is didn't have his fingerprints on the bomb, he more than likely had been involved in plotting, planning, training, fund raising, whatever for "subversive" activities, which in turn, made him "fair game" for his rivals (CIA, 10 Downing, etc.) In that case, they just nailed him to the cross for Lockerbee in lieu of other covert activities that broke the "code". Using THEIR (Fundamentalist Islamics) rational for logic, if you're not with us, you're against us, they pulled him in and placed him in prison, which, if you are an "infidel", is a good place for a guy like that, freedoms and rights be damned. Kinda like nailing OJ Simpson for $30 million in civil suits, although the jurors found him not guilty of his crimes.
Traci
September 8, 2009 11:14 PM BST
I couldn't agree more rae, yet another great post from you. When i read what had been said in a previous post.....quoting " Lockerbie was the piece of dirt the bodies and plane remnants fill on, that's all" i had to laugh because had that actually been said to a Scot who'd lost someone at Lockerbie, then whoever said it would be on the recieving end of a glasgow kiss!
.
Lol xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Anna-Marie
September 9, 2009 8:41 AM BST
'A piece of dirt'-you only a Christian on Sundays/-shame on you! . I wont pretend to the 'Luvvie' stuff,Marsha-I find youre rants both bigotted and pedantic and I fear for you and my beloved country.
September 9, 2009 4:21 PM BST
I believe everything has been said about this post now, and it has sparked a good debate, which is healthy. However in light of recent comments and in the interests of everyone involved, this thread is now suspended.
You are more than welcome to contact me should you feel that this decision is unfair.
Nikki