Amy,that was well put-even though I ,for one,am not an aetheist.I think the thing that has incensed us Brits is that the Lords have seemed to capitulated on this issue.As a Christian,I fear that some of my correligionists can be very bigotted about sex(why,baffles me) and if it came to a choice between living in a liberal democracy(if only!) and a Theocracy or Police state,I would give up my faith.

Religon does teach love and understanding as long as you believe in that religion. Through the ages if you went against the doctrine of organized religon you would most likely end up dead, saying that religion has changed to encompass the ever changing world but why should they? They need to because people drive religion now and not the other way around. According to the bible a man with his balls crushed or his penis cut off shall not enter the congregation of the lord. Are we to make them change the bible because we want to join the congregation of the lord.
To make someone accept me by force, which is what you are saying, then that would go against what i beleive to be right. All of us have a right to believe what we want to, using what is politically correct to make other do what we want is wrong.

The bible also says, “…there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.”
Matthew c19 v12 (I knew it would come in useful).

I agree with your point Amy, but:
“Religion does teach love and understanding as long as you believe in that religion.”
When I was at school I was taught that Christianity preaches love and understanding to all men (and women), even unbelievers.

It’s not so much that some of us would like to change any religion, it’s more the way religion manipulates society; we still have laws based on some interpretation of the bible. Only a few years ago we couldn’t shop on a Sunday. Until recently you could get legally married only if you were heterosexual and cisgender. Even now, gays can “get married” but they can’t actually call it that, it’s a civil union, and can’t be done in church. So what about Christian gays, where do they stand? They believe in God but they can’t worship in Church. Why not? God wants them there doesn’t he?
Depends how they interpret the bible, there’s the problem.
Pardon my French but anal sex used to be illegal here, probably still is in some places, and why? Cos it says it’s wrong in the Old Testament. Whether it’s your thing or not, no-one should be sent to prison for it (where you’ll probably come across a lot more).
Religion, which most of us like me and you Amy, don’t believe in, should not be allowed to dictate rules and laws to everyone. Even if they did show love and understanding to everyone they still don’t have that right.
I feel sorry for people bound by religion (you think you’re pissing people off Amy?!) but they cannot impose their guilt and misery and closed-mindedness on me. Bishops or similar should not have a place in The House, The Church should not be consulted on law-making issues, it’s nothing to do with their private club; they can’t have it both ways.
xx

I am wondering who influenced who recently. Did Lords possibly do what they did to offer obsequious servitude to his Popeness with regard his forthcoming Briitish crusade or did Mr Fish-head Hitler-Jugend copy the Lords?

As a child growing up in the American south during the 50’s and 60’s, I saw institutionalized discrimination at work. The separation of the races, the outlawing of interracial marriage and the denial of basic civil rights were the way things were. Not only were there laws to enforce this discrimination, it was also supported from pulpits all across the south. At that time, I did not understand what was going on, heck I was just a kid, but as I got older I realized things were not right. Although things are much better now, all the things I saw 40 years ago still exist just to a lesser degree.

I find it sickening that the same rhetoric is used when speaking of gay and transgender people – among others – that was used to describe African Americans. Terms like ‘in time’ and ‘small steps’ were used back in the 60’s to delay the realization of civil rights to everyone. Have we not learned from the past that it does not matter what the external package looks like, that the important elements are the ones that lay hidden inside. Are we not capable of contributing to the betterment of the societies we live in? Of course we are when not held back, won’t even say ‘given the chance’, because that would suggest just indifference not active hindrance and denial of full rights.

As far as the Bible, it says in the Isaiah 56:4 “For the eunuchs who observe my Sabbaths and choose what pleases me and are faithful to my covenant, 56:5 I will set up within my temple and my walls a monument that will be better than sons and daughters. I will set up a permanent monument for them that will remain.”

If the UK and the USA are the enlightened nations then it must really suck living other places. One good thing about our countries is that we can grouse, complain, write letters, and demonstrate without disappearing in the night.

Guess I was sort of rambling.

Jeri

I whole heartedly agree with you Lucy that religion has no place in law making even though our basic laws came about due to religion inluencing how civilized society should function. The time of religion controlling this country has passed due to Henry VIII kicking the popes influence out of the country.
To me, all religions are sacred and should be outonomous. People are free to choose which religion they follow if any at all but when do people have the right to tell a religion which part of its teachings to adhere to and which to ignore. In making the church accept transgendrered and gay people we are effectively changing a religion to suit us and not hat the church stands for. Should we continue changing it til it no longer reflects its own teachings?
The bible says that us transgendered people that have had GRS should not enter the house of the lord. In other words, God doesn't want us, he also doesn't want gay people to enter either, the church is only following its own teachings in this matter as according to the bible. To me it is not a problem as i am an atheist but to the people that were indoctrinated into christianity at a young age before they knew who they were is a very big problem. I can see both points of view but can not see any answer. I just hope in time that the church will understand that its teachings are wrong and everyone should be allowed to worship.
I admit i was wrong to say religion only loves those that follow it, god loves everyone, even the people that go against its teachings. God does want us to renounce our 'evil deeds' and come back into the fold, even transgendered people but that is what god wants and not what the church wants. To change a fundamental part of christianity because some people want to worship who are excluded from it, is wrong to me.
Amy

I do agree with you Amy, I have no personal desire to change what the church does, and I certainly don’t want to be a part of it, but one can’t help noticing their hypocrisies.
As I said, they can believe what they want, but they have no right to meddle in everyone else’s affairs.

The bible says that us transgendered people that have had GRS should not enter the house of the lord
I don’t think GRS had been invented as such in those days, so we are back to the eunuchs analogy, whom the bible also says ARE allowed in the kingdom of heaven!
Their big book tells them both things, so no-one is trying to change “a fundamental part of Christianity”, just trying to encourage them to be more fair, more Christian. After all, the people who really want to change things are those that follow the religion themselves. I’m sure it matters to them that their beliefs are being twisted in this way.
The bible is full of contradictions, so anyone’s refusal to accept certain groups is based on their own prejudices rather than firm, unarguable “holy writings”.
xx

Yes the bible is full of contradictions and most of it is open for interpretation by each pesons point of view, in saying that though:-
Deuteronomy 23;1 “No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the lord". No matter how i look at it this appears to cover GRS. The eunuch analogy is open for interpretation,' A eunuch made by men' could refer to forced castration and 'A eunuch that has his testicles removed for god' is ok as he is doing it for god . There by, ones either against ones will or for god, a eunuchs place is assured. I don't think we fall into these categories as we do it for ourselves and it is not forced upon us.
'As I said, they can believe what they want, but they have no right to meddle in everyone else’s affairs'
The church isn't meddling in our affairs it is the other way around, the government are trying to make them accept transgendered people when they are well within their rights to say no.
I hope i have not offended you Lucy or feel that i have picked on you to explain my feelings on this. Part of me wishes there was no religion in the world then everybody would be responsible for their own actions but that would detract from free will.
Amy

You haven’t offended me at all Amy and no I don’t feel picked on! It’s an interesting discussion, though I don’t really want to go round in circles with it any more. Quoting the bible and then counter-quoting is just the problem; they can’t decide between themselves what is the “correct” interpretation of matters like this, and it’s not my job to do it for them. The modern Christian church I thought was supposed to be based on the teachings of Jesus, and he was a lot more liberal and loving to all men than a lot of the old testament. So making laws and basing their beliefs on books like Deuteronomy would surely be inappropriate, even to them.

I was castrated “by man”, I didn’t do it myself! Jesus didn’t say anything about whether we choose to have someone do that to us or not. According to Matthew I’d be welcome in heaven, all I have to do is accept The Lord…

I don’t disagree with you that it’s their “right” to exclude anyone from their ceremonies, it’s their religion they can do what they want with it, I don’t care enough to try to change it, but I can speak out against it because I think it’s disgraceful. It’s just my opinion.

The Church certainly does meddle in our affairs, and yes I agree with your point that it’s the other way round too. I’m happy to leave them in the dark ages with their private club that excludes certain Children of God (as Jesus said we all are). I just wish they’d stop trying to influence the law of the land and society as a whole. If some of the nutters in the Church had their way my SRS would have been illegal. Perhaps Dr Suporn would instead be the world’s best hang, draw and quartering surgeon.
And “Life of Brian” would have been banned….
xx

Perhaps the thread has served its purpose. I intentionally did not get involved in religious arguments although a practicing Catholic and presume many of our US members thought likewise.

They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard."Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid. Deuteronomy 21:20-21.
"Observe the month of Abib and celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, for in the month of Abib the LORD your God brought you out of Egypt by night. Sacrifice as the Passover to the LORD your God an animal from your flock or herd at the place the LORD will choose as a dwelling for his Name. Deuteronomy 16:1-2
I just thought whilst we were on the subject of Deuteronomy we might like to read a few other gems from there. It seems that to live fully according to its laws we would have had to have killed an entire generation of our teenagers in the last 25 years, me included in that. Also we would once a year have to take an animal without spot of blemish to church to be slaughtered at the alter to commemorate the passover. Ah but the passover is for Jews, so how do we differentiate which is relevant and which isn't? According the the Bible Jesus was the sacrifice, the lamb of god without spot or blemish who fulfilled the law, once and for all. Paul stated "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not." 1Corinthians 10:23. Its funny how people like to quote the Old Testament when they wish to judge others but find it much harder to do if they live in the New Testament.

Discrimination will never be eradicated, not only because of religion,race and gender issues (to name just a very few!!!) but even on this site there some times seems to be discrimination between the tv's and the ts's If we can't get along with out it, then how do you expect the rest of the world to behave!

It also seems to me that quite often it's those that shout "discrimination" the loudest are often the worst offenders .

I do believe however that we should fight it in all it's forms.

Huggles

Becca

It has always occurred to me that people tend to use religion to promote their own bigotry and intolerance. Once again, it is the religion they use to do this that suffers and drives everyone else away.

It seems to me that the the bible and christianity supports and promotes incest and child/parent relations. Maybe details of this can be cleared up if we had Adams and Noahs story on how they overcame the problem of repopulating the planet.

Another point I wish to consider. There are 26 bishops in the House of Lords. If religion was to be truely represented then shouldnt there also be 26 rabbi and 26 sheikhs and from other religions too? I can really see them allowing that to happen!

Anyone can believe in God, and anyone should be allowed to practise their beliefs. The church are saying this is not the way for their own bigotry and intollerance.

I think they get confused between practising their religious beliefs and their bigotry and intolerance beliefs.

penny
x

You know what Rebecca. That is just so very well said. Good on you !