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Who DOES he think he is??

    • 1912 posts
    August 30, 2009 4:06 PM BST
    Report: Lockerbie bomber release linked to oil
    Sunday Times says Britain agreed to include Libyan in a prisoner transfer


    Reuters - updated 2 hours, 20 minutes ago August 30, 2009

    LONDON - Britain agreed to include Lockerbie bomber Abdel Basset al-Megrahi in a prisoner transfer deal with Libya because of "overwhelming interests" shortly before an oil deal was sealed with Tripoli, a newspaper reported on Sunday.

    The Sunday Times said leaked letters from Justice Secretary Jack Straw undermined government denials of a link between the former Libyan agent's freedom and British trade interests.

    Megrahi, 57, was released from jail on August 20 after Scottish authorities said his terminal cancer gave compassionate grounds for him to return home to die.

    Hugs,
    Marsha
    • 2068 posts
    August 22, 2009 11:07 PM BST
    Just WHO does the FBI chief , Robert Mueller think he is, openly & publicly criticising the Scottish Government and in particular Kenny MacCaskill, for releasing the Lockerbie bomber on " compasssionate" grounds. Kenny Maccaskill was in a no-win situation here as he's been slated for releasing the guy, had he not done that he'd have been slated for crumbling under pressure from the US Govt.

    I for one think it took great courage on the part of the Scottish Government to make that decision, knowing it would upset certain people. (Lets not forget that Scotland lost people too)

    Maybe this will teach the US that they cannot interfere with the Justice System of another country, to engineer a decision in their favour.
    Adbelbasset Ali Al-Megrahi only has a few weeks to live ( what with having terminal cancer) and i honestly cannot see what all the fuss is about.



    This Phrase " Justice tempered by Compassion" From Kenny Maccaskill says it all & Good on him.


    Anna-Marie

    • 2463 posts
    August 23, 2009 2:16 AM BST
    I'm trying to figure out if you're being sarcastic here or not.

    • 2068 posts
    August 23, 2009 2:40 AM BST

    I'm not being sarcastic in the slightest Mere. I just feel that the head of the FBI has no business coming out & openly criticising the scottish government on a decision that was down to them alone.


    Anna-Marie
    • 163 posts
    August 23, 2009 9:25 AM BST
    Firstly, I'm half-Scottish - no criticism implied.

    If he hadn't been received in Libya with such celebrations, then we might be applauding the mature, humanitarian stance taken by the Scottish Government. However, the televised reception has made a mockery of this act of compassion, and sadly has provided Gaddafi with an opportunity to taunt the West.
    The Scottish Minister was put in a difficult place. This was not the opportunity to define The Scottish Government as independent free-thinking humanitarians, but should have been the opportunity for Scotland to gain leverage on the world stage by openly inviting US, UK and European heads to discuss and determine the outcome. If a joint decision had been taken that he should remain incarcerated, then it would have been a shared one. On this occasion, independence has sadly encouraged isolation and negative reactions, and Scotland, doesn't deserve this.

    It's desperately sad to return the tragedy of Lockerbie to the newstands in this manner.
    • 2068 posts
    August 23, 2009 11:57 AM BST

    I couldn't agree more with you Rachel, the Scots government were in a no-win situation where they were going to be slated whatever decision they came up with. I think it took Real courage for them to do what they did.


    As for the reception megrahi got in Libya on his return, it beggared belief & couldn't have been more wrong. They took advantage of the compassion shown by the Scots & threw it back in their faces.You are so right there, Scotland does not deserve to be treated in this way.



    lol xxxxxxxxxxx
    Anna-Marie
    • 1912 posts
    August 23, 2009 12:08 PM BST
    I believe the simple point Mere was trying to make was whether or not the end result was unexpected. Can you really say the reception Adbelbasset Ali Al-Megrahi received was unexpected? And compassion, you have to be kidding. Where was the compassion for those innocent people on that Lockerbie flight? And great courage? It took that same great courage to look the other way and appease Hitler allowing WWII.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
    • 701 posts
    August 23, 2009 1:17 PM BST
    AM...

    I've given it some thought and wisely did not post my first thoughts on the matter when you placed your thread up here for they were not going to be lady-like...you know I am dead set against the release. I have come to understand why Scotland did what they did, but I don't have to agree with it.

    To me, we are fighting a never ending battle of idealism, a war of cultures per say, that has existed since mankind has recorded their actions. The Crusades reignited the flames we're we're living thru today. The supposed religion of peace, when taken to the extremist level of activism we're witnessing in our generation, has taken the world hostage in ways that no huge armies (USA) can accomplish. Theirs is a thought out, planned process to topple "infidels" without the mess of bullets and weapons as seen in regions where fighting is going on.

    Why invest in a fight that they know they cannot win in the traditional method of warfare? Their scholarly clerics have determined that the weight of our own evil ways will be enough to bring us down and all they have to do is fuel the fire with a terrorist act here, a terrorist act there. People will become so timid of them that they will force their governments to waste resources in preparing and combating them. While this is going on, they chip away at the economic models of their enemies (that would be the capitalist countries). Couple this with collusion from radical organizations within these capitalist countries and we're witnessing an often silent battle of huge impact.

    Back to my point which is we're viewed as being soft, unwilling or unable to take up the fight. They are banking on this, as a premise of their fanaticism states that we are so morally bankrupt that we will back down in the face of threats and danger and not muster up the will to standup to them. It is in their culture to sacrifice for the greater good and that their reward will be eternal shacking up with a stable full of virgin girls. I mean, who wouldn't subscribe to that??? So to tie it in to the release, the gesture by Scotland has reinforced their beliefs about western civilization being soft and weak and has only created a whole new layer of whackos willing to die for the sex, errr cause. A hero's welcome upon release??? Sickening and most definitely a thumb in the eye to Scotland, the USA, and the rest...

    While I truly believe in kindness and humanitarianism to fellow world citizens, I also firmly believe that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. And if we keep our heads in the sand and wish that bad things and people would go away instead of drawing the line and standing up to this, then we will be enablers and part of a future generation's line of questions as in "Why didn't they do something about this when they had the chance"? as our great grandchildren head to the temples to chant their prayers under Islamic watch.
    They are not going to stop this war...ever...are we willing to pay the price to insure individual's rights and freedoms? How many Tgirls do you think would exist say 100 years from now if left unchecked? It is this principal that prior generations were willing to give their lives to in order to protect other's rights.

    William Wallace (among other brave men and women) would be puking in his grave if he saw this...

    Traci xxxxx
  • August 23, 2009 1:44 PM BST
    what annoys me about this business of compassionate relases is when they miraculously get better or at least live a long time...Biggs was brought back to this country and has cost us maybe a £1million when he shoudl have been left to rot and die quickly in South Amercia...similarly who was the guy charged with a massive bank fraud and had the case dropped cos he was at deaths door only to be happily back at work a few weeks later...if this Libyan does die quickly then I'd say fair enough that he is sent home...but if he's alive and kicking and throwing s*** in our faces for another ten years then I'll agree that the FBI was right in saying no release.
  • August 23, 2009 4:43 PM BST
    I hope most sincerely that America does not judge all of us from Britain for this. Some of us do understand what the fuss is all about.
    • 2013 posts
    August 23, 2009 4:48 PM BST
    Released on compassionate/health grounds..........................this always annoys me and like Traci, I going to refrain from what I really want to say because I'm a lady. But my point is, so what if he's going to die soon? Tough, he should die in prison where he should still be paying for his crime. Ill health should in no way be a get out of jail free card!

    Perhaps the final decision should have come down the families of the victims.

    The Western world is becoming so soft, I wonder if it will still exist in another 100 years?

    Nikki
  • August 23, 2009 5:06 PM BST
    Well done Marsha, You plumbed new depths with your crass mention of the appeasement of Hitler, Chamberlain was undoubtedly wrong but by doing so allowed WWII? Don't talk such utter crap.

    Regarding this Scottish incident, I (being British) fully understand this act of compassion, how ever I believe they were wrong to release him as the end result was easily predictable.

    Huggles

    Becca
    • 1912 posts
    August 23, 2009 5:14 PM BST
    Love you too Rebecca, nice to see you crawl out of your hole to add your usual color. I'm also glad to see we both agree the result was predictable.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
    • 2615 posts
    August 23, 2009 5:48 PM BST
    Life in prison should be life in prison. I thought that ment the rest of that persons life. He should have had to look at brick walls untill he died. The man had no compasion for those he killed, why show him any?
    The whole world questions what the U.S. does. But if someone from here questions another than just who the hell are we.
    • 1912 posts
    August 23, 2009 6:06 PM BST
    Rebecca, to clarify the WWII statement, simply put, those who blindly want to believe the otherside will not choose to do harm are the same type of people who chose to ignore Hitler early on and allowed World War II to escalate to historical proportions. I am not blaming Britain or Scotland for WWII, but the ignorance of people around the world not to see what later was recognized as obvious. MacCaskill's release of Adbelbasset Ali Al-Megrahi on compassionate grounds is a pure mockery of law. As most have said here just as you and I, the result was predictable. So why did it happen? In my opinion it was MacCaskill's attempt to hold out the olive branch saying see we are nice people, do what you want but leave us alone and the terrorist world says to themselves, you weak idiots, we can get away with anything. And that is exactly what Hitler did.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
    • 701 posts
    August 23, 2009 6:06 PM BST
    No Alison...not the intelligent ones anyways...it's more an indictment on Western Civilization and our propensity for capitulating so easily...unlike our muslim "brothers" who have committed to reversing our influence.

    traci xxxx
    • 2013 posts
    August 23, 2009 6:33 PM BST
    Yes, the 'nicer' and 'more civilised' we try to behave, the more the other side will take advantage of it. History has shown that, and current events only confirm it further. What legacy are we leaving our children and grandchildren I wonder? Who knows, maybe it will come full circle and people will take a hardened view of crime once more, though sadly not before some devestating catastrophe has occured to galvanise them into doing so.

    Nikki
  • August 23, 2009 7:03 PM BST
    Nikki, are you suggesting we lower ourselves to the standards of the barbarians that attack us? should we throw away our principles, our compassion? This release was a mistake but we must maintain our way of life, our standards or our enemies will really have won.

    huggles

    Becca
    • 2013 posts
    August 23, 2009 8:06 PM BST
    I don't think I said anything about lowering our standards, it's more about being on our guard and treating people appropriately. Our standards, if anything, should be raised, not lowered.

    Nikki
    • 448 posts
    August 23, 2009 8:48 PM BST
    I hope this thread doesn't escalate out of control. The simple fact is that the decision to release El-Megrahi was essentially a political one and not taken purely on the grounds of compassion. The idea that it was taken by the Scots without reference to the British Government is naive in the extreme. Details of possible trade details having been negotiated in relation to the release of El-Magrahi are emerging all the time. There was also an appeal in the pipeline that may have revealed aspects of the case that the Authorities consider best left hidden. There are doubts as to the guilt of El-Megrahi. I am not familiar enough with the details of the case voice an opinion on this. It is well known, however, that El-Megrahi, was a Libyan intelligence agent and that Libya was a country that both carried out and sponsored terrorist attacks. I personally believe that Iran was behind the Lockerbie bombing but that is not to say that El Megrahi was not involved. Relations with Iran, as we know, are fragile at the moment and if it was revealed that they were behind the Lockerbie bombing then there would have to be a response and the West has its hands full with Iraq, Afghanistan and indeed Pakistan. Better that he die in Libya may be the view of the Authorities, but one has to wonder why he was given that hero's welcome if he had not done something in the service of his country to warrant it. The simple fact is that he was found guilty in a Court of Law of an abominable and unforgiveable crime, his co-accused was cleared of all charges. As such, he should have died in prison not worthy of our compassion. As a human being it is very easy to forgive anything. If I see someone cry I want to cry with them. Nikki is right that it displays our weakness but not in the sense that we no longer have the moral courage to make tough decisions or that the liberal values we espouse are essentially weak but rather that we are in thrall to those who have the supplies of energy we lack. The West has actually been fighting hard and paying a high price to defend the values we treasure. But they have made a mistake in trying to export them and have taken their eye off the ball in hitting the wrong targets. Whether we like it or not Great Britain and the United States are linked in being the societies, however imperfect, that the rest of the world should aspire to and be wanting to embrace. It is a shame that our actions often result in creating only resistance. The decision to release El-Megrahi should have been taken only in negotiations with the Americans, after all, the majority of the victims of Lockerbie were American citizens.
    • 2248 posts
    August 23, 2009 10:06 PM BST
    Gonna be realy hard not to step on anynes toes in this thread and this subject.

    1. I think, not positive, but under the terms of the Hague convention on human rights, that a life term has a maximum period.
    wether that applies to people who were sentanced prior to that coming into force is debatable. Thats the UK goverments fault fo
    signing up to it.

    2. we don't know what political pressures were bought to bear on the Scotish justice secretary. by the UK goverment in London.

    3. Whilst the American feelings should have been taken into account, seeing most of the people that died were american that
    does not entitle them to try and control foreign goverment policies. Does the american goverment ever pay heed to requests from the
    British goverment?

    4 Why does the subject of WWII keep coming up, Should we be seen as an aggressor by getting in the first strike, Bomb first
    Ask questions and apologise after and then have to clear up and deal with the crap, Mmm weapons of Mass destructions and
    Iraque spring to mind.

    5. Was this bomber realy a bomber or made a scapegoat to appease Iran? and boost libyas acceptance in the muslim world, probably things
    we will never know, even under the pathetic information rights act some things will never be revealed if its considered to be in the states interest
    and security.

    Me personally, Life should mean life, Many of the american systems of justice appeal to me, they have a consecutive punishment system, where crimes are dealt with individually and punishments awarded for each crime are not all lumped together, ie do five crimes get a year for each, punishments to run concurrent, like here, they do five years, finish one punishment and then start the next. Comit two murders, no chance will they leave prison cept in a box. Unfortunately, like everyday occurances, there is no real justice for the aggreived or bereaved. The rights of the criminal seem to be paramount, that is what is destroying western society that and deluded law makers in Strasbourg.


    Crisitne

    • 2068 posts
    August 23, 2009 11:06 PM BST


    Marsha - yes it took balls for the Scottish Justice Minister Kenny Macaskill & the Scottish Goverment to make that decision, knowing they couldn't win whatever they decided & despite un-needed pressure from the US. Only time will tell if it was the " right decision".

    I Know i may only be Half Scottish, but i back the Scottish Goverment & First Minister Alex Salmond's stance on the matter 100%.

    This line from the letter Robert Mueller sent to Kenny Macaskill really made me laugh......

    "You have given Megrahi a "jubilant welcome" in Tripoli, according to the reporting". errrr, no they DIDN'T......the Libyans did that themselves.


    Lol xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Anna-Marie


    • 1083 posts
    August 25, 2009 5:00 PM BST
    ***WARNING: MINAKO IS RANTING!!! SHE IS BEING UNLADYLIKE!!! YOU HAVE ALL BEEN WARNED!!!***

    Did this take cojones on the part of the Scottish government?

    You betcha. Stainless Steel cojones, for all that.

    Style points for standing up to us crass, uncivilized Yanks, who all secretly dream of world domination. (Goddess, I'm so sick of hearing that line of crap.)

    You want uncivilized? You got it, kids. Little Miss Mercury's got her panties wadded up on this.

    Life in prison used to mean life in prison. As far as I am concerned, he should've been left there to rot, as should all people who get life sentences. They are considered a menace, and should be kept out of a "civilized" society. In point of fact, if I had my way, they'd have hung or shot him years ago.

    Never mind the heroes welcome he got when he got to whatever hole he crawled back to, to hopefully die within the next few weeks. I suspect there is a special place in Hades for folks like him, who blow planes full of innocent people out of the sky or run them into buildings. I don't care if an official of Libya was present or not.

    Let's not forget that 259 people died on the flight, plus 11 on the ground. Was getting on a Pan Am flight their life sentence? Was just happening to be on the ground in Lockerbie that day simply considered bad form?

    Or, was this the work of a deranged madman? You tell me.

    Sure, let him out on compassionate grounds, and ridicule us Yanks for being oversensitive. It's all in the past after all, and the man was dying of terminal prostate cancer. Let's be humane and civilized about this, and send him home for Ramadan.

    But I want a representative of the Scottish government to personally go to each surviving family and explain it to them. Tell it to the kids who lost a mom or dad. Tell it to a spouse that lost a mate. Talk to them about showing compassion.

    Mina
    • 2068 posts
    August 25, 2009 11:08 PM BST
    Minako, the guy's going to DIE anyway in a few months so why worry. I Do think that the scottish Justice minister Kenny Macaskill had a hard choice to make & one he could not win whatever he decided. And dont get me started on that arrogant head of the FBI, Robert Mueller wading in with his totally unwelcome comments like...." You have given Megrahi a "jubilant welcome" in Tripoli, according to the reporting". What complete & utter rubbish, the scots could not have foreseen what would happen to Megrahi when he was sent back to Libya & to blame them wholly for what happened was out of order. There were a few victim's families here who appeared on the News and much to my suprise said he should go back home to die. Are you going to tell me that they are wrong too?.



    Being only 1/2 Scottish myself, whats really got to me is fact that certain people over there, seem to have been bad-mouthing the ordinary scottish people & that is just WRONG!. I have just one thing to say to those who've set up the websites urging people to boycott the UK & Scotland and not to buy scottish goods......grow up, you're pathetic!


    Anna-Marie Trindall

    • 2068 posts
    August 25, 2009 11:19 PM BST


    Just a little something for all those the other side of the Atlantic who are bad-mouthing the Scots....... enjoy THIS!!!



    http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]eRKq1lE



    Anna-Marie
    • 1083 posts
    August 26, 2009 12:17 AM BST
    Anna-Marie, hon--

    That was beautiful. I loved the pipes!

    I have no qualms with the Scottish people. I question some of their officials--but in all fairness, I question all duly elected public officials...especially and particularly my own.

    And though I have chosen a Japanese surname and enjoy their culture and way of doing things, my true roots are Scot and Irish (both orange and green), with some English and Welsh thrown in. In short, I can have a civil war with myself.

    What I get tired of are people blaming me for the world's problems. My earlier rant had little to do with that, but holds true. I didn't want to go to war in Iraq; I saw that as a mistake of Vietnam era proportions. I didn't ask for my elected officials to solve the world's troubles; they do that on their own. I personally feel that each nation needs to work with all the others.

    But when a madman has killed 270 people and is returned home "to die", that makes no sense. True compassion would have dictated that the best medical care that could be brought to the prison be brought in, so this crazed idiot could serve out his time.

    That's where I took umbrage, hon. Not at you, nor the fine decent people of Scotland.

    And just to play fair, and in the spirit of peace and cooperation...http://www.youtube.com/wa[...]KL2zdjM

    Luv 'n hugs,

    Mina
    • 2068 posts
    August 26, 2009 12:37 AM BST


    I see two can play at that game eh minako. I HATE fallin out with people & i can see in some ways you're right about a lot of things. Its just when i hear people slagging off the scots, it makes me sad becuase the ordinary Scottish people are a decent lot and they dont deserve this especially because of one man's decision, however well meant it was.

    Truce??

    lol xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Anna-Marie



    • 1912 posts
    August 26, 2009 3:42 AM BST
    I have yet to see anything in American publications bad mouthing the Scottish people. The only thing being said is this was a political maneuver rather than a compassionate one and that MacCaskill and his Scottish members in parliament are to blame. So if you are reading anything else in your papers about criticizing regular Scottish people, it is your own media doing it for propaganda purposes.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
    • 1083 posts
    August 26, 2009 6:59 AM BST
    Truce, hon.

    We have more in common as sisters than we do our respective countries, sometimes....

    Luv 'n big hugs,

    Mina
    • 389 posts
    August 26, 2009 4:12 PM BST
    I'm with Porscha here.There were and are serious doubts as to whether Lockerbie was the work of Libya at all.By all accounts there were strange goings-on at the trial.The defence was denied access to documents and witnesses in favour of the accused,the investigation apparently ignored evidence pointing to possible alternatives such as Iran , the evidence as such against Libya was extremely circumstantial and anything else than watertight.etc etc etc.In short,the US had decided from the start that Libya was responsible and anything pointing strongly to Iran or any other Country/group was ignored.There was a very good chance that the impending appeal would have had some very awkward questions to answer....with the possibilty of the man being released as innocent.When national interests and political expediency are involved the truth is usually the first thing to suffer.
    I don't doubt that London and Washington made their views known beforehand but Scotland has,and has always has had,its own judiciary and,since the he was tried under Scottish law by a Scottish court,only the Scottish Government could take the decision to release him.Time alone will tell how rapidly terminal his prostate cancer is.

    Lynn
    • 389 posts
    August 26, 2009 4:33 PM BST
    Porscha,
    I seem to remember reading that it was a political deal between Libya and the US which sent El-Megrahi to that extra-territorial Scottish court in Zandvoort(?).( The reasoning behind the extra-territorial courrt escaped me then and it escapes me now).In other words,El-Megrahi was just a-possibly innocent- pawn put up by Gaddafi in a deal which got the US and others off Gaddafi's back.It wouldn't surprise me at all if was told to "take the rap,help us out of this spot of bother, and we'll see you and your family alright." Hence the,in some peoples eyes completely wrong,heroes welcome on Tripolis.

    Lynn
  • August 26, 2009 4:54 PM BST
    Marsha-you are so predictable! As half-Scots I am proud of the compassion shown to a dying man,presumably Marsha approved of the release of Pinochet.Half the victims of Lockerbie were British and devastation or even worse over a small border town was terrible to see.Frankly I and a lot of my fellow Brits are sick of being pushed around by Amerika-the last country in the world to lecture any other on morality.Scotland swept its side of the road-it is tragic the praise showered on the man I agree though-well done Scotland and shame on the Quisling UK government! Nina Papillon
    • 1912 posts
    August 26, 2009 6:05 PM BST
    Not sure how you were able to extrapolate that Nina. I believe in basic laws, a crime is a crime, a sentence of a year is a year, a sentence of life imprisonment is life. Give me a break on compassion, it is already a given that someone sentenced to life in prison will at some point become terminally ill, maybe something better would be shoot them and put them out of their misery, just don't set them free from jail. And once again I said this has nothing to do with the Scottish people, just the politicians who made an unwise decision. So how you turn this into a dislike for Scots or Brits I just don't know. Geez, I'm half English.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
  • August 26, 2009 7:10 PM BST
    It seems that it was just one 'Politician' that made this decision, as many others in the Scottish parliament were also appalled by this . I would also point out that within the uk it is normal for a prisoner to serve as little as a third of a given sentence, being released on parole after proving "good behavior" whilst in prison. this means that a life sentences can be as little as 8 years if the judge didn't indicate a minimum tariff.

    Huggles

    Becca

    Ps. Marsha being compassionate doesn't mean shooting them, thats not how civilized people behave.
  • August 26, 2009 7:24 PM BST
    Ok Marsha-suppose its time to put my musket and tricorn away-shoulder arms.One does get one's knickers in a twist.Seriously though,girls,we have a massive problem here,Ilive close to a large Muslim community most of whom are nice,but when I see women in Burkhas in themiddle of Bradford or Leeds all my 'Liberal' views go out the window or perhaps left/right doesnt aspply here-I think it is going to test all our socalled 'values' and I fear we are losing it and even playing into the hands of theW'a habists .By the way,yanks,thanks for all the spam AND the P-38's,P40's-the P51'S were OK also but needed the Balls of the Merlin,love y'all-Nina Mc.Papillon
    • 389 posts
    August 26, 2009 7:37 PM BST
    Marsha,

    Your comments about the rise of Hitler and the Socond World War are totally unnacceptable.I doubt whether anyone on TW was around in the 1920's and 30's-you and I certainly weren't. It's very easy to apportion blame with hindsight and to lose sight of the possibility that the responsible politicians in Europe at that time were unable to act otherwise.The trauma of the First World War-the carnage in the trenches in Flanders-meant that there was next to no political or popular support in France and the UK,or anywhere else for tjhat matter, for any renewed military operation against Germany.The view from the USA ,given the couple of thousand miles distance,may well be different but, despite the presence of GIs at the end in 1918,it wasn't your country which had to bear the brunt of the destruction and carnage.It is also doubtful as to whether the UK and France before 1939 would have been militarily able to do very much to inhibit Hitler's plans.The USSR was more or less a pariah state up until 1941 or so and in any case,the prevalent anti-communism of the time would have been a severe hindrance to any attempts to rein in Hitler and his war plans.

    As far as the El-Meghari story goes,you seem to skip over postings which don't suit your point of view.Let me make this clear-I AM NOT A SUPPORTER OF LIBYA,ALI MOHMED EL-MEGHARI or anyone else in this matter.What I do not like is politically ordered 'justice' supported by propaganda a la 'Fox News'(USA) and 'The Daily Mail' (UK) and the whole Murdoch press empire.The truth is,however,that the case stank from the very beginning,and there would seem to be good reasons for believing that there has been a,politically desired,miscarriage of justice here.If,as may well be the case,neither Gaddafi's Libya nor the libyan agent El-Meghari had anything to do with Lockerbie,what right does anyone have to keep an innocent man,sick or otherwise,in gaol?Because it is or was politically expedient at the time? Or is there no such thing as wrongful imprisonment in your book?


    Have a nice day!

    Lynn

    • 1083 posts
    August 26, 2009 7:56 PM BST
    **shakes head**

    Anna-Marie, hon--

    Didn't we call a truce?

    Ladies--

    We all have opinions. That includes me; I am one opinionated b*tch and not afraid to admit it.

    However, I'm also all for not getting too nasty here. An opinion is just that...doesn't matter who you are or what you do. That includes Rupe Murdoch. I don't always agree with Fox News...but I don't march lockstep with CNN or MSNBC, either. An opinion is like maguro--some is good, and some stink. (Don't know what is maguro? Look that up in your Funk and Wagnalls, kids.)

    I keep seeing "civilized" tossed about on this thread. I'm all for keeping it that way.

    Luv 'n hugs,

    Mina
    • 1912 posts
    August 26, 2009 9:43 PM BST
    Hang on Lynn, when I talked about WWII I did not say "Europeans", I said "people around the world." And that comment was only directed at what I felt was a short sighted decision to release this guy, nothing more. I think a lot of people here need to reread my comments and see everything I've said was directed towards MacCaskill, not Scots, not Brits, not Europeans, and for that matter not Libyans. As for his guilt or innocence, none of us are privy to the details and the last ruling in court was guilty, therefore if you have information of value that can lead to his innocence don't preach to me, take it to the courts.

    Lynn, I see you are from Germany, please don't take anything I said about WWII to mean I have anything against the people of Germany. What happened, happened. The people I blame if you want to call it that are the politicians that we are led to believe will act in our behalf but so often act for personal gain or special interests, not the people. That happens here in the U.S,. and pretty much routinely around the world. I believe that is wrong and I believe this entire topic is based on special interests, not the interest of the people.

    Rebecca, the shoot them and put them out of their misery comment was totally meant tongue in cheek. But I do stand firm that I feel a sentence should have meaning behind it, without that you lose any opportunity for a sentence to be a deterrent, let alone truly dangerous individuals need to be kept away from society.

    And for you gals around the world, feel free to say what you want about the idiots we have running our country, you won't find me defending them, lol.

    Hugs,
    Marsha
    • 2068 posts
    August 26, 2009 11:34 PM BST


    Yes Minako we certainly did, its just a shame certain people can't let it drop. Life's too short to be bitching about something we can't change.


    Lol xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Anna-Marie
    • 731 posts
    August 27, 2009 12:51 AM BST
    This is a difficult thread to both read and to comment on. Clearly an emotive subject on both sides of the water.

    I can understand the OP to a degree. The other night on Newsnight we had an American chappie - forget his name and position, older chap with a bizarre walrus moustache - getting all huffy and red in the face with indignation. How dare Scotland release this man? Sorry, how dare you come on our news and try to rebuke us? Rude to say the least.

    Well, my point of view is quite simple. Some could almost call it Christian. I personally think that it is totally inhumane for anybody - irrespective of who or what they've done - to be incarcerated if they are medically proven to be terminally ill with a short time to live. No ifs. No buts. It simply is not right.

    Obviously - and not surprisingly - we now have debate over how ill this guy is. Ho hum.

    Whilst I'd be the first to admit the UK - and Scotland [bearing in mind Scotlands system of Law is different to the rest of the UK] - are too lenient. A life sentence should mean until such a time as the criminal is physically debillated by age to offend again. Not exactly rocket science.

    But our good friends in America, I find your attitude to justice far too oppressive. Almost to the point of brutality. I choose my words carefully and really do mean brutal as in animalistic, vindictive and nasty. Sorry. I don't wish to fall out with anyone - my sister is American, my cherished niece and nephew have dual citizenship and Marsha you know I love you to bits! But is your system of being solely punitive the right way? I really am not convinced. That said, of course, we could do with a little toughening up!

    And, just to feed the conspiracy theorists, there was that rapturous 'heros' welcome. Would Gaddafi really have given such a welcome to a guy who cost him about $1.7billion? Or would he have taken him straight to the types of jail you or I really wish never to see? Just a thought...




    • 2615 posts
    August 27, 2009 2:51 AM BST
    Now knowing what you all think of us here in the US I don't feel very welcome anymore.
    Anna it's you that suprises me most.
    I thought the people here were online friends. I won't make that mistake again.
    • 1083 posts
    August 27, 2009 7:39 AM BST
    Rae, sweetie--

    I'm not offended by your comments. I can tell you put some serious thought into your words. Yes, we Yanks have a brutal system, comparatively speaking. Yes, we have a recidivism rate that reeks. Is our way the right way, or the only way?

    No on both counts. Having said that, however, I feel that it works here in the States. It won't work in Europe, or parts of Asia. That's why we are all different, luvs.


    Karen, hon--

    You're entitled to your opinion, same as I am. Your friends here are indeed your friends; we shouldn't all agree all the time. Genetic girls don't! (Ever watch a group of GG's looking at the same outfit? You think I'm b*tchy....)

    Like I said above: Is our way the right way, or the only way? No on both counts. But it works for us. We shouldn't be surprised when others don't understand. America is not exactly everyone's cup of chai right now; we have done much damage to our standing in the world. Besides--America, after all, is a grand experiment, one that many said would never work. It's our differences that make us unique, dear.

    Take some time and think about this: These people we are online with, these are our sisters. We all have more in common than national boundaries. We are all TG/TS, and thus, have far more in common than our governments do. We all want to live as the women we are becoming.


    Everyone else:

    I care for you all. You are my friends, my sisters. We have much to learn from one another. And, I respect your opinions, even if I don't agree. I ask you respect mine as well.

    Luv 'n hugs,

    Mina
    • 731 posts
    August 27, 2009 11:39 AM BST
    Minako, I agree with every word you've just said. And the truest part has got to be 'don't understand', I think that's the key issue here. Neither side can quite understand the reactions of the other.

    Karen, you surprise me. Having read this thread through I find nothing to make you feel unwelcome. The debate may be a little heated at times but it is clearly an emotive subject. And please don't forget that the coldness of text belies the warmth of the person typing...

    Much love to you both

    Rae xx
    • 389 posts
    August 27, 2009 12:22 PM BST
    Those of you in the UK with a fiver to spare could do worse than go to:

    www.private-eye.co.uk

    where you can download Paul Foot's special report from 2001-'Lockerbie -The Flight from Justice'
    (theoretically........I've just 'phoned the 'Eye' 'cos their sales checkout only accepts UK addresses and apparently they've got technical problems with their downloads at the moment).

    Paul Foot was an investigative journalist in the UK (for youse in the USofA in the same class as 'Watergate Woodward & Co) who followed the investigation and the trial and picked up on the incongrueties,the questionable,even heresay nature of much of the evidence,the forbidden lines of enquiry etc etc.

    How many possibly innocent people are sitting in Death Row at the moment?


    Lynn
    • 1912 posts
    August 27, 2009 12:36 PM BST
    You may be quite right Lynn. It is hard to say whether or not if this guy was just a scapegoat. And if he was a scapegoat, why him and who really did it? I think we are back to the politics of it all where things are done for special interests, not the people whom they were put in position to represent.

    In the end we are left with too many questions which allow people to line up on both sides of the discussion as we have here. It is human nature to support your own side, without saying who is right or wrong. As moderator of this forum I had thought about editing or even deleting some of the posts but I chose not to. There has been nothing different in this thread than so many others here at TW or any forum. It is a topic of opinion and I think it is good that we are able to express our opinions here. Some posts did get a little too personal which I hope in the future we can refrain from. But the bottom line is express your opinions.

    Hugs,
    Marsha

    • 2248 posts
    August 27, 2009 1:01 PM BST
    For rather, such an emotive subject, encompassing national loyalities, the requirement for perceivable justice, the sovereignty of national goverments to determine their own policies, I think in the main this thread has been conducted in a very lady like and
    civilised manner, even if heated at times. Just goes to prove that in the world order of things trannies seem to have an overiding infinity with each other.

    xxXCristineXx
    • 701 posts
    August 27, 2009 4:02 PM BST
    My last post on this subject...do not think for a second that Scotland wasn't in touch with Washington DC and 10 Downing Street on this...to think otherwise is naive...

    It IS nice to see all the girls agree and disagree and no one get bloody...now if we were in a British pub, you can be assured the purses would be flying and more than one set of nails would be ruined! LOL

    Move on...

    Traci
  • August 27, 2009 5:21 PM BST
    Minako, I want to say that though our politics afre poles apart,that I appreciate the spirit in which you express them,in fact you and Marsha are the only 'Girls' to reply to my threads.Also you have made me think and Marsha has even changed my opinion somewhat on a TG issue. What worries me much is that I agree that we DO have a common enemy but its not something we can drop high explosives on from a great height. Sorry to pontificate but us Brits have much on our concience there-the Bomber Command offensive over Gemany in WW2 near constitutes a war crime in my opinion and I say this not with any leftie 'schadenfreude' as my father was aircrew on these terror raids and suffered with his comrades huge bouts of remorse and I understand the Canadian bombaimer died an alcaholic.The sufferings of our German enemies (who my old mans' crew didn't hate) is unimaginable and it is to the credit of the German people that they seem to bear us so little ill will. jEEZ-THAT SOUNDS HEAVY but I say this trying my damndest to keep up some sense of perspective in what I know that you girls with more conservative views share-that is the dire seriousness of this conflict-if there was such a thing as a Devil (say Screwtape!)he would be rubbing his hands with glee at confounding both liberal and neocon, of Christian and Jew and all shades of opinion between.
    Thanks for talking about the kind of girls we are becoming-that gives me a special kind of thrill-way to go! Hugs'n stuff,Nina Mc.Papillon-xx
    • 389 posts
    August 27, 2009 6:25 PM BST
    Oh oh oh-I've been speaking a foreign language for far too long......should be incongruities and hearsay ........dreadfully embarrassing........so sorry!

    As to who might be behind Lockerbie ,I think there was talk of evidence pointing to Syria .Then again don't forget Iran-which country shot down an Iranian civil airliner in Iranian airspace on a routine flight over The Strait of Hormuz a couple of months before Lockerbie?

    Wikipedia is interesting- Pan_am_flight_103 (or something similar!)



    Lynn
    • 701 posts
    August 27, 2009 6:26 PM BST
    Arrrgggghhh...was going to let this slide and end my involvement with the thread and I am as compassionate for fellow humans as the next girl...BUT...

    My father flew B29s in WWII....15 mission life span for the crews on average...he somehow manged to get thru 25 alive...HIS take and I concur is regardless of the atrocities committed by the bombing raids, it did a lot to shorten the war and saved the lives of thousands of Allies, US, UK, Canadian, and Aussie boys that otherwise would have had to gone into each German city and fight hand to hand...he had 7 brothers, all of whom served and they were infantry...they DID land in Normandy and fight hand to hand in Bastogne and various Rhine crossings and then building by building inside Germany...most of them made it home alive too...two didn't.

    Britain did not start the war and in fact, it was Germany who began THEIR indiscriminate raids on the UK..the US was trying to avoid involvement at all costs, but as time went on, it became impossible to look the other way like so many European nations did while Hitler was gearing up in the 30s.

    So my point is this...and I do not care a bit what others think,, you fight fire with fire and you have every right, morally or otherwise, to defend yourself when provoked or threatened.
    The German leadership totally f*cked their people over, not once, but twice in the same generation. Now, hundreds of thousands of innocent German citizens lost their lives in these raids and it is a sad thing to note...that said, it also brought about a realization that the party was over...same held true for Japan. Without the nukes, Japan would have defended to the death their homeland...might have cost a million + lives! you tell me now if the awful deeds done by the allies were not justified? Tell that to my late grandmother who might have lost another 2 or 3 or more sons in a conflict we did choose to be a part of!

    War crimes??? My arse!!!

    So, if one chooses to look the other way and believe that mankind is going to mellow out and be a better place if we all just get along, I want a pound of whatever it is you're smoking...those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it...so unfortunately, if we let our guard down, there will be no shortage of psychos willing to take us down. Sad, but true...if you want to place post-war spin out here that the Allies were cruel and out of control, you've been duped by the media and liberal idiots who have the gall to rewrite history lessons. Auschwitz didn't exist? Armenian genocide never happened? Stalin didn't purge 30 million dissenters?

    Get real people....

    Traci xxxxx