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Who DOES he think he is??

  • I believe everything has been said about this post now, and it has sparked a good debate, which is healthy. However in light of recent comments and in the interests of everyone involved, this thread is now suspended.

    You are more than welcome to contact me should you feel that this decision is unfair.

    Nikki
    Every woman is beautiful, some show it with their faces, others show it with their hearts.
      September 9, 2009 4:21 PM BST
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  • 'A piece of dirt'-you only a Christian on Sundays/-shame on you! . I wont pretend to the 'Luvvie' stuff,Marsha-I find youre rants both bigotted and pedantic and I fear for you and my beloved country.
      September 9, 2009 8:41 AM BST
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  • I couldn't agree more rae, yet another great post from you. When i read what had been said in a previous post.....quoting " Lockerbie was the piece of dirt the bodies and plane remnants fill on, that's all" i had to laugh because had that actually been said to a Scot who'd lost someone at Lockerbie, then whoever said it would be on the recieving end of a glasgow kiss!

    .


    Lol xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Anna-Marie
    "When the world gets in my face i say HAVE A NICE DAY"
      September 8, 2009 11:14 PM BST
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  • That said, and they are all good points, the international world of espionage and agents usually follow a code that keeps them alive unless they cross over the line so to say...so while maybe El-_whatever-hisname is didn't have his fingerprints on the bomb, he more than likely had been involved in plotting, planning, training, fund raising, whatever for "subversive" activities, which in turn, made him "fair game" for his rivals (CIA, 10 Downing, etc.) In that case, they just nailed him to the cross for Lockerbee in lieu of other covert activities that broke the "code". Using THEIR (Fundamentalist Islamics) rational for logic, if you're not with us, you're against us, they pulled him in and placed him in prison, which, if you are an "infidel", is a good place for a guy like that, freedoms and rights be damned. Kinda like nailing OJ Simpson for $30 million in civil suits, although the jurors found him not guilty of his crimes.

    Traci
    <p>Traci</p>
      September 8, 2009 10:05 PM BST
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  • Christine

    there are people who see it that way,and I did mention in an earlier posting this very possibility-rather a couple of days of awkward comments and staged annoyance than a long drawn out series of extremely embarrassing revelations.(so long ago now-back near the start I think).

    Rose,

    The muslim angle is interesting but I don't think I'd put too much weight on it.I feel you're looking at from the perspective of 2009 whereas i think we have to try and put ourselves back to 1988/1989-which is when Lockerbie happened and the investigation started.I also think that,no matter what The Koran says,as we've seen in Iraq,muslim solidarity tends to have a confessional aspect-basically Shia against Sunni.Over in Libya,Gaddafi was trying to play the socialist rather than the islamist.
    Way back....suspicion fell on Iran and a radical Palestinian group- PFLP-GC Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command,a basically Marxist-Leninist orientated group based in Damascus,Syria,that had achieved a degree of notoriety through hi-jackings and so on.Whatever the precise relationship with Iran was,various PFLP groups in Europe were rounded up,either just before or not long after Lockerbie.In Frankfurt,for example,the police found 5 bombs of the type used for Lockerbie-the person who made them has been reported as saying that he made 6........if so,one bomb went AWOL.........Other Palestinians arrested in Sweden and Yugoslavia apparently gave very pertinent information as to events on Malta. Later on,athe German news magazine 'Der Spiegel' had an interview with an Iranian who told them how the bomb was transported to Heathrow and by who.By the time this appeared however,the investigators were trying to fit Libya into the picture instead of Iran,Syria and the PFLP and so it was never followed up.


    Personally,viewing the whole,stinking,can of foetid worms that the Lockerbie story is,the release on compassionate grounds was absolutely correct and was the only act of fairness and justice in the whole sorry tale.Better late than never.

    Lynn
    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      September 8, 2009 8:22 PM BST
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  • Lynn


    This is getting away realy from the original point, the ''Release on compassionate grounds, or the rot in Jail till he died'' agenda, but I find this realy intriuging, the subtefuge and inside dealing etc, that seemed to have gone on. Is there any chance that he was released on purpose before another appeal got under way, the authorities fearing egg on face syndrome with further revelations that have leaked out or become knowledge since the original trial? Better to be seen as compassionate wimps as opposed to blantant liars and perjurers. So intent on a result by public demand and foreign pressures than a truthful and open trial. I realy don't see that the trial convened as it was, with no jury etc, would have been fair wherever it was held, the fact we exported Scotish justice to a foreign country was imaterial as to location. It could have been held on the moon from what I have read, would have made no difference to the outcome. But saying that I think from the little I know that the Scotish Trial system is one of the fairest and safest in the world, with having a 3rd verdict. If left to judge and reach a verdict without undue pressures.?

    Cristine.

    Perhaps I'm letting my imagination run away with me.




    To me it would seem there is more here than the best thought up novel. Truth being stranger than fiction?
    Cristine Jennifer Shye** Beware the toes you tread on today, they might be attached to the arse your forced to kiss tomorow. Contenplating involvement with a man? Make sure you can cook realy well or face having sex on a regular basis. Men are like paving slabs, lay them properly, they will stay put and you can walk over them for ever.
      September 8, 2009 7:25 PM BST
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  • Christine,

    the authorities managed to get the release through before the appeal could really get going.Saturdays Gaurdian had an interview/article with a barrister,Michael Mansfield,and besides confirming what I've tried to get over in this thread he also had some comments to make about the aborted appeal.There is also the aspect of El-Megrahi's health to consider,since the appeal would almost certainly have been dragged out with interminable legal wrangling.

    ciao

    Lynn
    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      September 8, 2009 6:45 PM BST
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  • Can I make the point that in Muslim thinking anyone not Muslim is Infidel so enemies such as Iran and Libya will forget their differences and join together against the Infidels while still taking any opportunity to harm each other. It's not Libya against the world its the Muslim world against the Infidel World...so that muddies things up and if we add in some CIA stirring over oil and arms trading then who knows what the truth is and was.

    And Muslim is the excuse for the guy remaining in prison rather than constantly protesting his innocence and bringing his country and by extension the Muslim world into conflict? Muslims can blank off today in order to get Paradise tomorrow whiel we Infidels take today and blank off the Paradise that is ours the moment we die. (do not get into argument with me over this or I'll have to tell you to get some Semtex and go blow up every religious artefact in your area.)

    Re the point of law about holding the trial in neutral country... this is purely a ploy to try ensure no civil unrest or harassment of witnesses and official. Exactly the same happened in the next town to me when some Muslim robber/murderers were tried for killing a policewoman. As the town has a very big Muslim population the trial was moved right up England to an area where the population is much closer to 100% White English or White European or Black African - all of whom have no love for Muslims.

    Re the point of law about no juries... right now in London a gang of vicious robbers are being tried by a single judge after two previous trials collapsed after the jury were 'tampered with' by offers of cash, beatings, etc...as the gang had so much influence and many contacts the identity and safety of jurors could not be guaranteed so the seldom used rule of 'no jury trial' had to be invoked in order to see justice done. Prosecution and defence lawyers will have to give the stark facts without making any appeals or influencing remarks to a jury and the judge has been chosen to examine all the facts and decide if they add up to and he can say Guilty or Not Guilty.
      September 8, 2009 12:35 PM BST
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  • I conclude reading in depth, that both the USA and the UK were dertermined to get a result, irregardless of the facts, the inducement of $2M dollars paid to Tony Guaci the star witness by the US goverment did'nt exactly promote the search for the truth, Another point raised was the shooting down of an Iranian civil airliner over Iranian air space was the root cause, the bomb on the Lockerbie flight being originally promoted and sponsored from Iran in retaliation. Iregarless of Mgrahi suffering Cancer one has to consider why he was not released on appeal on the flimsy evidence and the inducements given at the time,
    Perhpas the compasionate release on grounds of ill health was a face saving exercise for the inept and inacurate evidence presented at the time.

    What Sanctions or threats were made against the Libyans at the time to offer up the two defendants? After the shooting down of the Iranian civil airliner, The USA could hardly be in a position on the world political stage to threaten Iran, so was Liybia involved with Iran in a cover up. I don't think we will ever know, A case of justice was seen to be done. at the time.????

    Cristine
    Cristine Jennifer Shye** Beware the toes you tread on today, they might be attached to the arse your forced to kiss tomorow. Contenplating involvement with a man? Make sure you can cook realy well or face having sex on a regular basis. Men are like paving slabs, lay them properly, they will stay put and you can walk over them for ever.
      September 8, 2009 11:57 AM BST
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  • This thread will run and run...........!!

    If this thread is getting silly this is down to some people apparently having problems with nasty little facts and realities which contradict their view of the world.We all know if we're honest,-on both sides of the Atlantic-,that the world of politics,justice and intelligence agencies,especially when they work together, is nowhere as squeeky clean as we'd love to believe.In the US you've had Watergate,Contragate etc etc,in the UK we've had numerous justice scandals where evidence was blatantly withheld,manipulated and so on ,with the result that innocent people were sent down for life.There were occassions when it seemed that having an irish accent and being stopped by the police for drunken driving was enough to get you a life sentence as an IRA bomber!

    To Lockerbie(yawn....)..and no,Marsha,this is not conspiracy theory-this all came out in court!

    1:Two Libyans were charged with the Lockerbie bombing on the basis of an identification obtained by the CIA through bribery of a person known to be a corrupt and compulsive liar.

    2:Surprisingly(!) ,the court rejected this persons testimony-lock,stock and barrel.This resulted in the total collapse of the case against the second suspect who was consequently released.It also made the continuation of the case against El-Megrahi ridiculous since it meant he would have had to have been acting alone....................

    3.El-Megrahi was demonstrably NOT on Malta on the date the case and clothing were purchased.

    4.He WAS on Malta on the date the case with the bomb is supposed to have left the island,as unaccompanied luggage,by plane to Frankfurt and on to London.

    5.An earlier court case brought by Air Malta had already established that there was NO unaccompanied case on the flight in question to Frankfurt, and that NO passenger or luggage was booked onwards to London from Frankfurt.Every case that went on the flight in Malta was collected in Frankfurt by its respective passenger.


    So,where does this leave us?

    El-Megrahi was sentenced to life for buying a samsonite suitcase and clothing-in person-from a shop on Malta when he wasn't on the island,and further,putting said case as unaccompanied luggage on a flight to Frankfurt with transfer to London although it had already been proved in another court that no such unaccompanied luggage was on the flight in question and that all the luggage was accompanied and accounted for.

    FACIT: El-Megrahi was apparently sentenced to life imprisonment for merely being on Malta on the date in question!

    Lest we forget-being employed by the intelligence agency of your country is not,in itself, a criminal offence.

    Christine-been doing your homework?It was,possibly with good reason,felt that a free and fair trial would not be possible in Scotland or the USA-therefore the fictive Scotland in Camp Zeist,NL.The judges could have gone for 'Not proven'-but preferred to go the whole hog.

    have a nice day,girls'n'boys,

    Lynn
    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      September 8, 2009 11:29 AM BST
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  • http://en.wikipedia.org/w[...]l_setup

    I don't realy remember the actual bombing, I was only 5 years old. Obviously I have since heard about it and the trial in 2000 and the subsequent release of the bomber. This thread has caused so much controversy and a us and them, them and us
    attitude I thought I would find out as much as I could. What I find amazing is, it took 11 years to come to trial. But anyway hope all the protagonists in this debate can read it and settle back into a harmonious and more genteel discourse. remember we are all sisters.


    Hope I have the url right,................................................ It works, it actually works, lol


    Loadsa love Cristine xxxXxx
    Cristine Jennifer Shye** Beware the toes you tread on today, they might be attached to the arse your forced to kiss tomorow. Contenplating involvement with a man? Make sure you can cook realy well or face having sex on a regular basis. Men are like paving slabs, lay them properly, they will stay put and you can walk over them for ever.
      September 8, 2009 10:46 AM BST
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  • I have enjoyed the intelligent musings from both sides of this post. Being an ex-pat living on this side of the pond, I find it interesting that we all speak the same language, but look at things from almost completely differing points of view.

    I haven’t the foggiest of a clue as to whether megrahi is innocent or not, and nor do I care . I do know All politics is bad and corrupt at some level, doesn’t matter what Party what ideologies!! Who our enemy is today will most lightly be our friend tomorrow. And you have to know this is only because we want, or will get something from said enemy/friend. And yes afraid to say this girls, that does mean that in the not to distant future the bogy man of Al-Qaeda will be sitting down at the same negotiating table, as every other terrorist group has done..

    Please look up the time lines for this whole farce and yes Megrahi is probably a scape goat. That’s not to say Libya is innocent. This little piece of information I think is interesting.

    Libya agrees $2.7 Billion Dollar compensation package with the USA which included compensation for the bombing of Libya by the USA. Condoleezza Rice meets with Gaddafi and the trade embargo is lifted which allows British and American Oil companies to again operate in Libya.

    Do i think Libya is innocent in any of this, hell no but then again nor are the Brits or the Americans...The people on Pan Am flight 103 and the 11 Scots on the ground died as pawns in this ongoing game. If all of this makes it sound like a conspiracy theory, then chances are it is... But that’s just Politics
    Hugs
    Jane xxx
      September 8, 2009 5:05 AM BST
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  • 734
    Marsha,

    There is no rule that people have to agree. It's just that most of us prefer to debate politely and with natural ladylike decorum. [That comment, incidently is not aimed at you but a general statement!].

    I appreciate why our American cousins can get heated on this particular subject but I do want to pick you up on a point or two from your second to last post.

    Yes 66% of those who died in this bombing were American. But in total 21 different nationalities suffered a loss. Here in the UK we had 52 of our citizens killed.

    And this is the bit that would raise hackles here, 11 of them were living on 'the piece of dirt the bodies and plane remnants fell on'. Lockerbie's a town hunni. The plane fell on Sherwood Crescent in the town of Lockerbie. Lucky there weren't more deaths there.

    Just wanted to correct what might have been a misconception.

    And, from a personal perspective, I'd much rather you disagreed because you held a contrary view. Not just because you wanted to be contrary! ;)

    Much love

    Rae xxx

    [Haven't read the new republicans thread nor do I have a desire to do so. Seperate issue surely?]
    www.raekelcou.com
      September 8, 2009 1:39 AM BST
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  • No "e" on the Ann. I won't post anymore in this thread unless solicited for a response It is fascinating how the expectation is everyone is suppose to agree, so in a sense I'm glad I can get all your panties in a wad by disagreeing with you. Pretty hypocritical when you look at the new "Republicans" thread.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
      September 8, 2009 1:23 AM BST
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  • Marsha Anne,

    About a week ago I posted a thread in another forum where I told you I looked with anticipation to your posts. I sincerely meant that and I still do. (I seldom agree with you, but I appreciate your opinions and they often make me re-evaluate my own ideas.) I have tremendous admiration for how you handled your situation at your old church and while I'm not especially religious myself I think you are a heroine.
    But, Hon, we need to excuse ourselves and walk to the Ladies Room. You need to freshen up, reaply your lipstick and wipe the spittle and foam from the corners of your lips....

    Best (and I really mean that),
    Melody
    <p><span style="color: #800080;">Girls will be boys and boys will be girls It's a mixed up muddled up shook up world except for Lola Lo-lo-lo-lo Lola</span> - Ray Davies, The Kinks</p> <p><span style="color: #3366ff;">(S)he's a walking contradiction, partly truth and partly fiction</span> - Kris Kristofferson</p>
      September 8, 2009 12:59 AM BST
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  • I'm sorry if anyone has taken my comments as demeaning to Scots, Brits, or anyone for that matter, but along the same lines you seem to have no issue going after Americans. I have made reference in previous posts to this thread that it is possible for some to be bamboozled and used as a pawn for political purposes, however I see that as irrelevant in this case. My comments about the posts here have been against the conspiracy theorist who's ideas seem to be taken as factual and discounting anything else when the court did not see it that way and the fact there has been 20 years to correct it and nothing was done. If you believe so much that this was some nonsense conspiracy then it is you who is personally responsible for this terrorist's incarceration. And why were Americans involved in the trial, WHO DIED ON THAT PLANE? That was an American plane with Americans on board, Lockerbie was the piece of dirt the bodies and plane remnants fill on, that's all.
    Hugs,
    Marsha
      September 8, 2009 12:32 AM BST
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  • ENOUGH marsha....QUIT bad-mouthing the scots will you. They were not WEAK or stupid, but they saw fit to try the case under scottish law. And anyway, what business was it of this guy to be advising the scots?. I thought you were better than this



    Anna-Marie
    "When the world gets in my face i say HAVE A NICE DAY"
      September 7, 2009 11:38 PM BST
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  • 734
    Oh dear.

    Clearly this thread is descending quickly into absolute stupidity. Which is a little surprising and not just a little sad. I hope it is quickly closed before it hits absolute farce.

    I, for one, won't be wasting any more time viewing it.



    [Rae exits the sandpit...]
    www.raekelcou.com
      September 7, 2009 11:32 PM BST
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  • Marsha that outburst realy does'nt become you, Actually seated on the prosecution bench were Brian Murtagh from the US Justice department who helped draw up the indictment and Dana Biehl Justice department advisor to the whitehouse. Methinks the lady doth protest to much, Your goverment is about as innocent as ours when it comes to getting its own way, bit of bribery here, bit of a threat there, a few sanctions.

    Read some interesting stuff, Trial and pre trial reports, on record, How the trial ended up in Camp Zeist an old american Airforce base in the Netherlands, Nelson Mandella offered his country for an independant trial on two occasions, this was unacceptable to the USA. Nearly six years lapsed from the time of the bombing to the start of the trial. Mandella wanted a jury of judges made up from countries around the world, stating that no one nation should judge or deliberate on such a henious crime. Guese what the USA objected.

    Cristine
    Cristine Jennifer Shye** Beware the toes you tread on today, they might be attached to the arse your forced to kiss tomorow. Contenplating involvement with a man? Make sure you can cook realy well or face having sex on a regular basis. Men are like paving slabs, lay them properly, they will stay put and you can walk over them for ever.
      September 7, 2009 11:18 PM BST
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  • OMG, this is getting really good. So an evil U.S. official was there. So are you saying that the people running the trial, the Scots, were too weak or maybe too stupid to run their own Scottish law trial? This would make a great movie, I'm thinking Bruce Willis or Clint Eastwood can play the evil U.S. official and barge in through the door, better yet, blow a hole through the wall and enter the makeshift courtroom yelling out, "I'm in charge now!" Maybe we should have a nice family picnicking right outside the army base. As the Americans approach they can shoot the family down to make it more realistic because WE ALL KNOW THAT IS WHAT THE EVIL AMERICANS ALWAYS TRY TO DO. WOW, and here all along I thought it was a crazy feel good story about some guy about to die being allowed to go home for compassionate reasons. Who would have ever thought this nonsense up? WOW.

    Hugs,
    Marsha
      September 7, 2009 9:02 PM BST
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  • Lynn


    I was'nt sure, about the trial being held abroad, thought I heard it when he was released, why was'nt the trial conducted in Scotland, I'm sure there is so much surrounding this than we will ever get to know, perhaps it was conducted abroad so the americans could bring pressure to bare was anything ever said about not having a proper constituted jury and what reason was given for not having one. surely under Scotish law the same as English law one is entitled to trial by Jury?

    Cristine
    Cristine Jennifer Shye** Beware the toes you tread on today, they might be attached to the arse your forced to kiss tomorow. Contenplating involvement with a man? Make sure you can cook realy well or face having sex on a regular basis. Men are like paving slabs, lay them properly, they will stay put and you can walk over them for ever.
      September 7, 2009 8:45 PM BST
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  • Christine-

    you remember correctly.They had to set up a special,extra-territorial few acres of Scotland on a disused army camp at Zeist in The Netherlands.The trial took place according to Scottish law,but interestingly,without a jury.Whether this with no jury was a special,one-off,arrangement or not is beyond my knowledge.What is also interesting is that,although a scottish court applying scottish law,for some reason US officials(State Dept?Justice?)were very present in court advising the prosecution.....strange......

    Lynn
    "It ain't what you do,it's the way that you do it............and that's what gets results!"
      September 7, 2009 8:35 PM BST
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  • OMG! I do not know what happened to me the other day. For a few minutes I believed what the US and UK governments told me. I do not know what I was thinking. I am over it now and fully recovered. Imagine trusting a Western government not to throw somebody in prison for years just for show (and to get re-elected). My only excuse is that I had spent 11 hrs, in up to 102 degree heat, waiting for and riding 6 buses to-and-fro to the ER (A&E) to have my foot checked to see if it was fractured. It must have been the pain and exhaustion. However I said I "would like" to do it, not that I would do it. Big difference.

    Actually, I have repeated evidence that I do not shoot until I see the gun pointed at me or being shot at me before I shoot. Given those conditions I shoot without hesitation. My judgement has been flawless in such situations. A girl has to know how to take care of herself. I will never apologize for that. I like living. I do not mind shooting scum to do so. Shooting second can get you PCD....politically correct dead. Not my choice of strategies.
    "A live lived in fear is a life half-lived." - Native American proverb. "Inside every man is a woman who was drowned in testosterone before birth". - Wendy Jeanette Larsen "It is better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you're not." - Andre Gide (French writer)
      September 7, 2009 8:04 PM BST
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  • I know Cristine. I just get a laugh out of all the conspiracy theorist out there. When all this evidence is so obvious to these people, you have to wonder what idiots we have running the court systems around the world that just don't seem to ever see it the same way, not to say some of those involved can't be idiots, and not to say it is impossible for some pawn to get bamboozled for political reasons. As for those that want to believe it was compassionate to release this terrorist, there is no doubt that compassion played some role, how much is where we differ. Without rereading all this to find who had already said this, this guy wasn't just picked up strolling down the street minding his own business, he had already been linked to terrorist activity. It is kind of like saying to a serial murderer "We know you killed a dozen people, but we found out you are not the one who killed Jane Doe, so we are going to go ahead and set you free." How compassionate.

    Hugs,
    Marsha

      September 7, 2009 2:03 PM BST
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  • To Rae, good observation, about the not proven verdict that can be given by a Scotish court. The defendant can be re arrested at a later date, as further evidence is discovered and retried, unlike the not guilt, double jeopady verdict and its connotations.
    Which as I understand it means we know you did it, there is enough circumstantial evidence, but at the time they can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.


    I do not remember the actual reporting of the Lockerbie bombing, but was'nt the trial conducted abroad and did Scotish law come into effect?

    xxXCristineXxx
    Cristine Jennifer Shye** Beware the toes you tread on today, they might be attached to the arse your forced to kiss tomorow. Contenplating involvement with a man? Make sure you can cook realy well or face having sex on a regular basis. Men are like paving slabs, lay them properly, they will stay put and you can walk over them for ever.
      September 7, 2009 12:30 PM BST
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