I thought that estrogen lowers down your blood pressure... That´s anyway what I have read about it.
Maybe I´m wrong...

hugs

Laura

I´m on my fifth day on swiss natural estrogens and I never felt so relaxed and happy in my life. This is the path I want to go, wherever it will lead me...

hugs

Laura

Wow, that really is slow! Their (Drugstore.com) shipping cost for my order was only $1.49, and now I know why! The Vitamin Shoppe is much faster. Still, if it's a routine order and you place it ahead of time, Drugstore.com has a good reputation for being a legitimate drugstore, and that's especially important when ordering prescription drugs. I've heard of some on-line stores, especially in other countries, that might not send you what you actually paid for, even though the name and packaging are the same. Reliability is much more more important to me than speed.

Still, I'm like you, in that I want the speedy delivery, too. All we're asking for is perfection. That's not too much, is it?  http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fashionlab/Images/Smileys/Wink01.gif

samantha
I used to take black cohosh before i went on perscription estrogen and i still take a phyto estrogen complex because it has other things in it like vitamin e and ginsing you can get them at any healt food store or even wall mart they are really reasonable.

           hope this helps              kelly

Don't worry, I'm taking 0 mg of all of those. I'm just using herbals, for now. All of those prescription dosages are based on recommendations for pre-op transsexuals. As you mentioned, the Progesterone and Spironolactone dosages are pretty common, but if the 8 mg/day for Estrogen seems a little high, keep in mind they are for pre-op transsexuals. Anyway, I'll be taking a doctor's recommendation if I ever use those drugs, so I won't be making arbitrary decisions myself (as I do with herbals). Who knows, I might never use those drugs, but it is likely, which is why I'm doing my homework now. Thanks for the input, Sarah & Laura. I always like to hear from someone else with real experience.

Hayley, please keep in mind that the herbals I use and the dosages I take are strictly my best amateur guess based on my own research and discussions with others. That combination might not be right for anyone else, or even for me. Even though most herbs on the market are relatively safe (a few of them can be toxic, especially in large dosages), please be careful, and get as much information as you can from multiple sources. I might wind up seeing a doctor about these herbal hormones anyway, just to be on the safe side.

As always, please keep in mind that I'm not a professional, and I'm just showing you what I've chosen to use. I'm just another tranny who's done her homework, and that process never ends. Lynn, you don't have to buy the herbs from a drug store, you can get them anywhere vitamins or health supplements are sold. I use the Vitamin Shoppe for most of my purchaces. So far, they've been fast and reliable, and they have great prices.

Click on the names of some of the herbs for more info. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fashionlab/Images/Smileys/Stevie02.gif


Herbals (phyto-stuff)

Phytoestrogens
Black Cohosh Root = 2060 mg (four 515 mg capsules)
Red Clover = 860 mg (two 430 mg capsules)
Dong Quai = 50 mg (as part of a multi-vitamin; two 25 mg tablets)

Phytoprogesterones
Vitex Agnus-Castus = 800 mg (two 400 mg capsules)
Wild Yam Root = 1000 mg (two 500 mg capsules)
Suma = 1000 mg (two 500 mg capsules)

Phytoantiandrogens  (testosterone blockers)
N/A

Other
Vitamin E = 200 I.U. (as part of a multi-vitamin; two 100 I.U. tablets)
Pregnenolone = 60mg (two 30 mg capsules)
Black Currant = 100 mg (as part of a multi-vitamin; two 50 mg tablets)
Royal Jelly = 100 mg (as part of a multi-vitamin; two 50 mg tablets)


Non-herbal Drugs

Antiandrogens
Finasteride (Propecia) = 1 mg (1 tablet; prescription only)



My multi-vitamin is Especially for Women from the Vitamin Shoppe.

Yes, I've read that, too, from several sources. Good advice.

Hi Mae,

Thanks for the info, have you had any bust development yet?
How about a little bit around the hips, any additional hip girth we should know about.

Also welcome I see you've become a member, congrats!!!

Irene

thats so true Irene, as i posted before my associations with my therapist were a disaster. Although at the time her comments seemed pretty rational. Maybe because of my age at the time she thought (and convinced me for a period) that my problems were simply a phase, and not a gender issue ... stereotypes .. who needs them?.  Anyway i think for the immediate future im going to 'experiment' (for want of a better word) with some herbal remedies. With my current situation, i cannot now just do the radical swap and go the hog on prescription drugs.      xxxxx  andi

Don't know about the rest but I have been using something called Remifemin which contains Black Cohash and I can get it from my Chemist without a perscription. One tablet contains 20mg and I'm not sure how much I am supposed to take to I take 20 of them a day making it 400mg.
Development was fast initially and I can fill out an A cup easily and don't look too bad in a B cup, with a thin sock  ;D I also made my own breast pump which is quite a novelty to use, spend ages pumping  
I also found a site where I can order premarin without a perscription, considering taking that too.

Thank you for the links! I took a quick peek at those sites, and I'll study them later tonight. So, Rikki, your hips really showed that much progress after 18 months? Those are encouraging results. It's amazing, how much there is to learn about this... http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fashionlab/Images/Smileys/Stevie02.gif

After a few years of thinking about it, and a lot of research during the last month or so (and talking to females and trannies), I finally started taking herbals tonight!

I'm using:

Black Cohosh Root,
Wild Yam,
Vitex, and
Pregnenolone.

I'm also taking my usual multi-vitamin (which includes 100 IUs of vitamin E per day).

Plus I'm taking Propecia (1 mg of finasteride per day) and I've been using that for just over a year, now. That serves as the testosterone blocker. It's been only a year, but I haven't noticed any negative side effects.

Kristina, maybe you can find some herbs using these links.

This one is great for doing searches.

http://www.holistic-online.com/Herbal-Med/hol_herb.htm .

These are good, too.

http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/items_index/1,1538,HS,00.html

http://www.healthy.net/asp/templates/center.asp?centerid=24 .

http://www.johnleemd.net/articles/faq_01.html

Hi girls I was wondering if one of you girls ot there could e-mail me a list of all the good ehrable feminzation products that some of you take???  :-/
Thanks Samantha  :)

Stevie - I have been looking over all the posts in here and there are many but I can't find where you posted the dosages for the over the counter herbals that you take. Can you post it here once more? And can these be purchaced in a vitamin, health food store or only in a drug store.

I have to thank everybody who has posted here - the information is wonderful - it is a big help to a t-girls like me who is thinking about what to do LYNN

Just found out something interesting - If you move onto chemical hormones you need to stop natural ones - They compete with each other and the natural ones reduce the effect of the chemical hormones - If I can find te technical explaination again I will - But Trust me I noted the effect when I stopped taking all natural hormones -

Shelley

Your mention about spironolactone strikes me with surprise, because I have never heard about problems with spiro before. The drug is mainly used as diuretic, that is to take water out of your body. Its side effect is that it blocks the effects of testosterone. And causes gynecomastia.
In ts drug combination there normally ALWAYS is either spiro or cyproterone, which is very expensive. By blocking the effects of testosterone we can use much lower dosises of estrogen. And that is overall healthy for you.

Laura

Hi Rikkiradoula,
 It's so sweet of you to take the time to help all of us. You have really help me and now I can start on my road to have the body I should have had. You are a true girl friend to help me this way.
Love and Kisses,
Susan

Hi Girls,

Glad to see there's been some valid discussion while I've been away(Mary J Blighe wants no more drama in her life and girlfriends do i know how she feels!)
The question about script hormones or herbals is noted.
However if I may throw in my 2 cents worth:
Not all of us are fully transexual, for some living in the limbo between male and female is our only option.
We cannot be defined by simple terms. Some of us down right refuse to be labelled!
I condone the experimentation of herbal replacements until finding the level of emotional happiness that may help you on your path to gender enlightenment.
Having undergone "therapy" myself I know that it is not always the "get out of jail free" card as touted by those sucessful enough to have blagged that all important referal to the surgeon!
Some of us don't fit into any box, as wide as they may be.
Roll on the next gender revolution!

Love to all,

Irene

I started on a very intense herbal regime about 18 months ago - then added chemical horomones about a year ago and have been taking them without medical supervision for year.  However I did do a bit of research.

http://lisbeth.freeservers.com/herbal.html#cohash - is the best advice I have found on herbals - I followed her recommendations almost exactly - achieve quite a lot of development - about an A cup - though I was a bit overweight anyway - it was enough that my exgirl friend noticed it and commented after 6 months.

http://www.annelawrence.com/hormoneindex.html - This is the best advise on Hormones - Ann Lawrence is a TS medical practitioner - I am using Estraderm TTS100 patches - I was taking Spironolactone - but have stopped for a while -

I will be getting medical supervision shortly - I have been on this long enough now that I have permenent and noticeable changes - I shall not be able to go topless again - I still get erections still have an active monosex life - But I never had a big sex drive anyway and definately a more female approach to sex than a male one.

My hips are now quite a lot bigger, and my breasts are a good AA to B - Enough that I now use a Gel Bra or an ordinarly bra with Chicken fillets - I don't need full breast forms any more - infact that are difficult to use because of my own development.

Yes, I suppose that does qualify as "life or death."

Rikki, you aren't the only one who's suggested the tincture to me for taking Black Cohosh, but I just don't like those things. I'm more of the capsule type. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fashionlab/Images/Smileys/Stevie02.gif

Kristina, I haven't found anything that specifically gives you softer skin, but I would imagine anything that feminizes you in general (Black Cohosh, etc.) will possibly soften the skin to a degree. Maybe some of the other girls know of some herbs that help soften the skin.

Kristina, I placed my Drugstore.com order on 9/23 and they shipped it on 9/26. Of course, they had to get my doctor's prescription, and that was the first time my doctor's office had dealt with an on-line pharmacy. My prescription is now on file with Drugstore.com, so my future orders for the next year should ship faster from the time I place the order. We'll see how long it takes this first order to arrive.

Vitamin Shoppe is usually pretty quick. I normally get my orders within a few days. They have a good selection of brands in addition to their own, but theirs is usually the least expensive. I really love the Vitamin Shoppe! I get all of my herbals there.

A close friend recommended both stores, and she's been using them for quite a while. So far, I like them both, but I wouldn't order online if I needed something right away. Sure, you can't beat walking into a local store if you need something ASAP, but as long as you plan at least a week ahead, you shouldn't have any problems with these two on-line stores. The main reason I tried them was because their prices were lower than any other stores' I've found, so far.


Drugstore.com = http://www.drugstore.com

Vitamin Shoppe =  http://www.vitaminshoppe.com

Not yet. I'm just starting my second month and I haven't noticed anything, but I'm not supposed to, at this point.  Exactly what are you taking, Randy?

That first link for the Sissify site is a good one. I've been there before, and I think it's good general advice about herbs. Have you ever asked them any specific questions? I know they charge for that service, but I just wondered whether anyone had an opinion about the specific advice frfom Sissify.

Jayne, I have yet to find anything negative regarding Red Clover, and it appears to fill in some gaps and offer things most other herbs don't. Plus, as a source of isoflavones, it's much cheaper than most Soy products I've found. It just seems to be an often overlooked herb.

If I weren't already taking Propecia, I'd consider Saw Palmetto, too.


Laura, that's good to hear. I really hope to move forward to prescription hormones before too long, but I have to take it slowly, for now. I'm almost through my fifth month of herbals.

Here are a few on-line stores. I haven't used them all, but I do recommend The Vitamin Shoppe. Click on the links below.


Vitamin Shoppe

Drugstore.com

GNC (I don't think they actually have an on-line store of their own.)

Green Canyon

Mother Nature

Web Vitamins

Cedarvale Natural Health

Total Health Discount Vitamins

Herb Cupboard

Vitacost

Herbvine

Answers with Herbs

Penn Herb Company, Ltd.

Hi Girls

I've been taking a lot of natural hormone products now for about 12 months they have made quite a difference.  I got all my information from a web page that provides a lot of help http://lisbeth.freeservers.com/herbal.html- this is a report based on someone experiences following information she found in a newsgroup and it is very detailed.

I take Black Cohosh Tincture, Wild Yam Capsules, (and the cream when I remember), Agnus Castus, Saw Palmetto, vitamin e - there were some recommended products not available in the UK and I bought all from Holland and Barrett.  

The effect - I was losing weight at the same time but gained weight in the breast area and on my hips - as a result I can now fill an A cup comfortably  and my skin feel softer.  I also feel better myself - though that could be a Placebo effect.  The change was sufficiently different that after six months my ex girlfriend saw me with my shirt off and commented and I do not feel comfortable going swimming as a guy anymore  :-[

But I would say this - it is Male breast - not female breast - ie natural hormones redistribute fat but do not create breast tissue - and my nipples did not change at all. Great cleavage though and if I wear clothes to show it off I definitely do not get read anything like as much.  in fact I have even had someone turn round when I spoke and say - "Bloody hell love, you sounded just like a bloke."  :o

Some side effects – My nails are much more brittle and I have real trouble getting them to grow unless I wear clear polish or hardener all the time – I am also taking a vitamin supplement for Hair and nails, Vitamin B complex and Evening Primrose.

There was no loss of libido in fact it seemed to have increased.  I also take zinc because men lose a lot of zinc when they ejaculate.  Yeh I rattle as well  :)

What this did for me was to confirm that I wanted to go further and I have since bought the real thing on the web from New Zealand – Estradiol Patches and Spironlactone pills (Anti Androgen) – Unfortunately the source has closed down and I am now about to seek medical help and get them legally.  

After about five months – I am noticing a significant difference, though I am still taking the natural hormones as well. Now breast tissue is developing, my nipples are very sensitive and the is a noticeable decrease in libido, but I’m not worried about that – though I am not going for SRS.

Hope this helps

:o Irene,
 It can't be a vitamin shop as much as
a health food store because that's what
it really is.
 Actually, it makes my shlong 1/2 a size
bigger and another 1/2 a size larger, with
no apparent diminishing. It might be different
with every individual, I don't know but it's
one of the hottest things on the Above & Beyond TG website but at three times the cost.
Getting it at a health food store is a big
tip.

Hi, glad to hear it! Try red clover blossoms in capsule form too.
I've used them for a 3 months with black cohosh and saw palmetto, with starflower oil and B-complex.
During a recent doctor visit when I took off my shirt my doc commented that I my have a hormonal imbalance that had caused me to develop a bust. I told him not to worry had just put on a few pounds. In reality have lost 5 pounds and added 3 inches to hips too.

Good luck

Irene

Hi Becky,

While I understand what you're on about, we've wandered alittle off the subject.

Men are only good for 2 things and 1 is lawn maintenance!

See a therapist that is familiar with transexulism and gender dysphoria. Speak about that first, otherwise you'll be fobbed off as just another repressed sausage jockey.
If you mention sex at all in the first few interviews he'll diagnose you there and then.
Beware of the crack pots and find reputable assisitance.

Take care of yourself,
Love

Irene

As I've said before, I've got a lot of homework to do, but I appreciate hearing about the experiences the rest of you have had with herbals. It sounds as though herbals are not the way to go if you've made up your mind to have permanent changes, and that you'd be better off putting your money into real hormones. Is that an accurate conclusion on my part? I have yet to make that determination for myself, so herbals might be fine, for me.

Black Cohosh has been recommended to me from several sources. So, Irene, did the Black Cohosh alone lower your sex drive (your post of 10/31/2001) or were you using other things at the time?

Sometimes there's just no backing out.......Especially if she's wearing the same dress!

YOU can get Black Cohosh in a tinture - I used that for a year - before starting chemical hormones - and used 3 ml a day - It's by far the most powerful of the herbals and the tincture is the best way to take it. I did not notice any side effects from taking such large quantities.

Earlier this week, I placed my first order (a prescription) through Drugstore.com, so I'll let you know how it goes.

I've used GNC vitamins, but I think they're over-priced.

Hi Stevie

Sounds pretty high doses to me... I operate with half of that, what seems to work...anyway with me. I just noticed, it is hard for me to wear male trousers any more. Either I must lift them too high up or fix them somehow on my hips level.

hugs

Laura

I've never read or heard of anything about taking specific vitamins with herbs, aside from Vitamin E, but I do take a muti-vitamin designed for women. I use Especially for Women because it has a few extra herbs mixed in, but I would think any good muti-vitamin would be useful. Maybe someone else here has more advice.

Hi girls

I have been taking my daily spiro 100mg and my ethinyl estradiol 100 micrograms for some three and half months now.

The exciting small changes, which at the beginning made me  jump up every morning in order to check me in the mirror, has become routine. Or maybe not that, but the procedure seems to have levelled if not slowed down.

I know, it goes on, and I can even measure the changes. But it must be, just like learning a new language, a combination of spurts and stillstands. And I´m too eager to see what follows.


hugs

Laura

Stevie

You are right. Herbals DO work, too, though very slow. Maybe you remember that I started with herbals last August and I noticed some effects right away. As the smoothening of my skin. But real hormones are of course a turbo version when compared with herbals.
It is funny how they change your face, for example. You think you look the same, but have problems with your id-cards or your old friends just walk by and don´t see you.
Mentally, I think for me the main effect is calming and a certain high, brightness... but at the same time it is just too easy to burst in tears, if there is a reason...

Laura

Hi Irene,
 I want to start on hormones. Is black cohosh a fem hormone and if it is where can you buy it?  What is the cost and how much do you take? Can you buy it over the counter are do you have to go through a Dr.? I just want to inprove my breast and nipples. Thanks.
Hugs and Kisses,
Susan    (USA)

Hi Mae,

Thanks for the info, I'll look for that next time I'm in the local vitamin shop.
How long have you taken them and in conjunction with what vitamins?
The girls will want to know if you've experienced any diminishing of male erections?

Let us know,

Love

Irene

Just started on black cohosh and saw palmetto yesterday. So far, so good.

hello everyone! this is my first post in  (but not the last) in this forum. just a quick note about hormones and a brief of my story. like probably all the girls on here i realised that i was different to other boys in my teens. i always wanted to take something to feminise my body from being about 15 years old or so . When i was about 16 i was referred to a counsellor by my gp and she soon realised that i was confused about my gender. 'It was probably because i grew up with my mum and sister without my father around' ... she said. I was encouraged to not do anything rash, continue with therapy and to see what materialised. Although this seemed like good advice at the time .. I now regret this very much. I wish i had been more assertive with my opinion and gone ahead with my original plan. With hindsight ... the advice i got was terrible, one of the most overriding factor that i found with all transgender people is that no matter how much you try and run or hide or suppress your inner feelings ... they ALWAYS come full circle and the desire is stronger the more mature you get.My situation now has changed dramatically and is far more complicated with regards to making a transition to being a female. It would have been much simpler back then.
You see now i'am in my late twenties and feel like i have missed out awfully on a lot of things that i wanted to do. I still haven't really made any sort of transistion, due to thinking that this was some sort of phase that i was going through after my therapy sessions.
I used herbal remedies in my late teens that a friend told me about,on and off for about 12 months, but i did so very discretely, and they worked for me, i now still have the subtle feminine shape that they gave me. but at the time i didnt have a clue what i was taking. they could have been anything! NOT ADVISABLE !
The advice i can give if there is any 'younger' members in a similar situation .. is trust your instincts more... i wish i had. but when it comes to taking hormones... either synthetic or plant extract ...PLEASE BE CAREFUL  and research extensively what you want to achieve and using what products .. These things will make you feel fantastic and will feminise your body if used correctly BUT ... these are genetically powerful chemicals that make massive alterations to your body. so please fully understand what they do and use them with caution ...my love to you all.    Andi xxxxxxxxxxx

I used to think that all this stuff about consulting a therapist was rubbish, I have always felt like a girl, and when I decided to go on hormones I thought therapy was pointless because I knew it was what I really wanted.
Problem is I was wrong, I have never been attracted to men at all and never considered ever having a relationship.
Now my little rubber electric man is not enough anymore and I have developed an overwhelming desire for real sex, but whenever I look at men I just dont get turned on, unless I'm just staring at their crotch.
Think its time for therapy.

I started this post about a year ago, when I'd first started experimenting.
After all the herbals I've tried and used for the year.....hardly any change at all!
I think your body starts to build up defences against the herbals and stops the effects.
Not that I want to change anyway, well not completely just sometimes!

Fortunately, I've been able to avoid bar fights (I'm not messing up my nail polish unless it's a life or death situation).

True, but those are problems I won't mind having. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fashionlab/Images/Smileys/Smile01.gif

I received my Drugstore.com order today. I placed it on 9/23 and asked my doctor's office to send them the prescription, it shipped on 9/26, and it got here on 9/30. Considering the prescription wasn't already on file, I think the speed was reasonable, especially when you consider that the shipping time included a weekend. My order was right, too.

Randy, I've talked to some female friends who use herbals as part (or as their entire) hormone therapy for imbalances, etc., and I've received a lot of second-hand info from their doctors (advice which wasn't tailored for me, so I can't apply the info with certainty). I've also done (and still do) a lot of research on-line (you have to be careful and take everything on the Internet with a grain of salt, depending on the sources). I haven't sat down and discussed herbals with a doctor, yet, but I really should. Psychologically, talking to a doctor about my femininity is a big step, and I'm trying to put that off, for now. I don't have any major illnesses or bad reactions to any of these herbs, so I've decided to experiment on my own (which one should never do with synthetic hormones).

The reason large doses are necessary is because we are genetic males, and we're using them for a different reason than most customers. Females who use these same herbs usually take much smaller amounts, because they aren't trying to use the herbs to overcome the effects of testosterone, at least not at our levels, and because they already have much larger estrogen levels than do we, so they don't need to supplement their levels as much. Compared to synthetic prescription hormones, herbs are very weak, and to get a fraction of the results, we need take 1) as much as is safe, and 2) as much as our bodies can utilize without being wasted. From all of the research I've done, I'm taking about as much as my body is supposed to be able to actually process, without taking anything that can harm my system (theoretically). The truth is that there is a lot of guessing and estimating involved.

Obviously, I have to pay close attention to my body's reactions, especially while my system is getting used to these new substances. When I first started using Propecia, it took a couple of months to get used to it, even though I had no serious problems. Now, I don't even notice I'm on it. The bad thing about herbs is that even doctors don't know everything about them, so there is a large degree of trial and error. The good thing is that most of these substances are fairly harmless to most of us, so as long as you don't use them irresponsibly (mainly, overdose), you'll probably be fine, as long as you are in good health. Still, the best thing is to discuss them with a doctor first, but I don't always take my own advice.

If you do plan to take as many different herbs as I'm using, be sure to spread them out over the course of a day, and take them with food, even if it's just a couple of bites of something. Even though most of mine are in capsule form, which digest easily, taking too many at once can upset your stomach.

A site that Rikki and others have suggested, Lisbeth's Rose Garden, has a lot of information in one place, and I've verified most of the dosages from several other sources. I disagree with that site regarding Saw Palmetto, but, like you, I'm not a professional or an expert by any means. Don't trust any single source. Go find several sources and compare them to get a general idea of what we actually know about specific herbs. Usually, there simply isn't enough research available to determine whether an herb will be effective (for feminization or whatever), and even when there have been tests, you still can't be sure which combinations will work for you personally.

Eventually, I do want to discuss taking prescription hormones with a doctor who has experience with tranny patients. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't bother taking herbs now. By taking herbs, I'm just hoping for a glimpse of what female hormones can do for me, and hopefully, this will prepare me for a bigger decision in the (near) future. Psychologically (I know, again with the psychology), it does make me feel like I'm doing something positive by taking herbal hormones. I feel as though this is another step forward, and I'm a little closer to accomplishing something. Maybe I'll discover that it's a waste of time and money, but I don't think so.

With real prescription drugs, like Premarin, you really need a doctor's advice (or two or three), but most of my research leads me to believe it's a drug I'd rather not mess with, even without the morailty issue. Here are two sources with very different views on the drug.

http://www.premarin.com

http://www.premarin.org


Many trannies wind up taking a combination of things to increase estrogen and progesterone levels and decrease testosterone levels. This is one possible hypothetical combination I slapped together, but I just did it to give myself a general idea of what I might be getting into down the road, depending on how my experience with herbal hormones turns out, and depending on what a doctors tells me. This is not based on professional advice, just reasearch and discussions with others.

Estrogen:
Estradiol = 2 to 8mg/day

Progesterone/Progestin:
Medroxyprogesterone Acetate = 10 mg
or
Dydrogesterone = 20 mg
or
Natural Progesterone USP = 400 mg

Anti-androgens:
Spironolactone = 100 to 200 mg
and
Finasteride = 1 mg