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To Hormone or not to Hormone?

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  • 90
    Hi Melainelee

    I have been trying the Black Cohosh for the last few weeks but guessing the dosage.
    Perhaps Stevie could help us.

    Herbal Hugs
    Annie
      September 8, 2002 5:59 PM BST
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  • Here's my daily dosage (I take half in the morning, half in the evening):

    Black Cohosh Root = 2060 mg (four 515 mg capsules)
    Wild Yam = 1000 mg (two 500 mg capsules)
    Vitex Agnus-Castus = 800 mg (two 400 mg capsules)
    Pregnenolone = 30mg (1 capsule)
    Vitamin E = 100 I.U. (as part of a multi-vitamin; two 50 I.U. tablets)
    Finasteride (Propecia) = 1 mg (1 tablet; prescription only)

    Here's a good site to use as a guideline. I've read a few other things that back up what this site says (regarding dosages and which herbs to use), but this is the best one that has everything in one place: Lisbeth's Rose Garden (thanks Rikki).

    I use The Vitamin Shoppe to order most things. I'm using The Vitamin Shoppe brand for the Wild Yam and Pregnenolone, and the Nature's Way brand for the Vitex and Black Cohosh (all four are very inexpensive). Obviously, it's still way too early for me to recommend any brands, but after one weekend, everything's O.K.

    Any good multi-vitamin should take care of the Vitamin E.

    Propecia is expensive, but it's very easy for most males to get a prescription, in order to prevent (hopefully) baldness. The reason I list it here is because finasteride blocks testosterone. I'm taking it anyway, to keep my hair, so I hope it works with the herbal testosterone blockers/androgen inhibitors. I haven't found anything that indicates any danger from taking these together, but I'm always looking. Because of the Propecia, I'm not bothering to take Saw Palmetto (an herbal testosterone blocker), but Vitex, while also an herbal testosterone blocker, is supposed to have other feminizing effects, so I decided to include it. I've used Propecia for over a year, and I haven't noticed any negative side effects, but some males claim they have. Of course, you have to talk to a doctor, but you can get more information at Finasteride.com or by running a search for other websites (ther's plenty of good and bad info out there). The following information is from the Rx List website (the Internet drug index).

    "Finasteride, a synthetic 4-azasteroid compound, is a specific inhibitor of steroid Type II 5a-reductase, an intracellular enzyme that converts the androgen testosterone into 5a-dihydrotestosterone (DHT). Finasteride is 4-azaandrost-1-ene-17-carboxamide,N-(1,1-dimethylethyl)-3-oxo-,(5a,17b)-. The empirical formula of finasteride is C23H36N2O2 and its molecular weight is 372.55. Finasteride is a white crystalline powder with a melting point near 250°C. It is freely soluble in chloroform and in lower alcohol solvents but is practically insoluble in water. Finasteride tablets for oral administration are film-coated tablets that contain 1 mg of finasteride and the following inactive ingredients: lactose monohydrate, microcrystalline cellulose, pregelatinized starch, sodium starch glycolate, docusate sodium, magnesium stearate, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose 2910, hydroxypropyl cellulose, titanium dioxide, talc, yellow ferric oxide, and red ferric oxide."
      September 8, 2002 8:39 PM BST
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  • I've never found any information that suggests that Wild Yam is supposed to act as an androgen inhibitor. The only claims (for feminization purposes) are that it contains progesterone, which the body might convert into estrogen. However, I've also found statements like the one below, from http://www.healthwell.com:

    "Contrary to popular claims, wild yam roots do not contain and are not converted into progesterone or dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) in the body. Pharmaceutical progesterone is made from wild yam using a chemical conversion process. This can lead to confusion—while wild yam can be a source of progesterone, it cannot be used without this pharmaceutical conversion, which cannot be duplicated by the body. Women who require progesterone should consult with their physician and not rely on wild yam supplements."

    Wild Yam supposedly has other non-feminizing health benefits, so it might be good to take, but I'll drop it if I can confirm from some more sources that the body really can't use it to help with estrogen production.

    Regarding Coenzyme Q10, I've never found anything that suggests it helps to feminize the body. However, I did find this from http://www.health-n-energy.com:

    "CoQ-10 is an enzyme found in all cells of the body. It occurs naturally, and is the co-factor in the electron transport chain between cells. If is lacking, the body's most important source of cellular energy is depleted, and many medical conditions are aggravated. It is most concentrated in the heart and liver, and is a vital component in the mitochondria, the body's metabolic factories. It is a powerful antioxidant, scavenging free radicals, sitting in the membranes with Vitamin E which it recycles to keep it most active. It has been shown that enhancing the body's CoQ-10 can:

    Reduce many of the serious side effects of cholesterol and other prescription drugs such as adriamycin, beta blockers, and psychiatric drugs; Reduce the effects of aging; Aid in the recovery from a wide range of heart problems including angina pectoris, congestive heart failure and mitral valve prolapse; Reduce blood pressure and blood lipids at 60 mg day; Assist chronic fatigue sufferers when administered at 100 to 300 mg per day; Assist in weight loss by stimulating mitochrondria and thermogenic activity; Treat chronic gum disease; Building a strong immune system as a defense against all forms of disease; May normalize blood sugar levels; and<br>Help maintain a healthy brain."

    For some information on Evening Primrose oil, check this link: http://www.hcrc.org/faqs/eveprim.html.

    The research never ends...

      September 9, 2002 4:52 AM BST
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  • 90
    Stevie

    Many Many thanks for responding in such detail. Your help is much appreciated.

    I am trying:
    Black Cohosh     8 x 40mg
    Wild Yam           2 x 405mg
    Agnus Castus     2 x 400mg
    Saw Palmetto     2 x 400mg
    Vitamin E        400iu
    Primrose Oil     2 x 500mg

    My Black Cohosh dosage is way way under yours and this might be a problem for all UK users as the standard strength available from our best known high street chain (Holland and Barrett) is 40mg.
    50 a day - WOW!

    Thanks again
    Annie

      September 9, 2002 3:02 PM BST
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  • The only thing I've learned for certain while doing my research is that using herbals is an inexact science. They work differently for each user, and there aren't enough studies to know exact dosages for the intended results (feminization, preventing cancer, whatever). The main thing I've tried to do is avoid taking anything harmful or any amounts that would be harmful. From everything I've found, Black Cohosh is THE main ingredient for herbal feminization, and I'm probably using the maximum limit.
      September 9, 2002 6:40 PM BST
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  • Hi Girls,

    Just a little update on the herbal supplements. I'm about 3 months along with the regimen I've been using, mostly black cohosh with B-complex and saw palmetto. The only changes I've noticed is a slight re-distribution of body fat in the hip and chest area. Handy as I can no longer step into some of my clothes. I've got a silver dress that I've had for 2-3 years and have always stepped in and pulleed it up. Well last night I tried it on for the first time in many months and don't you know, it won't go over my butt! Over the head and wriggle it down. The lesson I've learnt from this is to keep accurate body measurements and record them every month.

    Love to all,

    Irene


    Welcome to womanhood darlin'  - Now you can say with feeling - Does my butt look big in this - I have gained a full size on my butt over the pastsix months - dieting is becomming a serious challenge- But I am going to win.
    Luv and Huggs Rikki xxx Proud to be Transgender
      September 10, 2002 2:42 AM BST
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  • True, but those are problems I won't mind having. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fashionlab/Images/Smileys/Smile01.gif
      September 10, 2002 2:50 AM BST
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  • YOU can get Black Cohosh in a tinture - I used that for a year - before starting chemical hormones - and used 3 ml a day - It's by far the most powerful of the herbals and the tincture is the best way to take it. I did not notice any side effects from taking such large quantities.
    Luv and Huggs Rikki xxx Proud to be Transgender
      September 10, 2002 3:25 AM BST
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  • Rikki, you aren't the only one who's suggested the tincture to me for taking Black Cohosh, but I just don't like those things. I'm more of the capsule type. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fashionlab/Images/Smileys/Stevie02.gif

    Kristina, I haven't found anything that specifically gives you softer skin, but I would imagine anything that feminizes you in general (Black Cohosh, etc.) will possibly soften the skin to a degree. Maybe some of the other girls know of some herbs that help soften the skin.
      September 10, 2002 3:37 AM BST
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  • Kristina, maybe you can find some herbs using these links.

    This one is great for doing searches.

    http://www.holistic-online.com/Herbal-Med/hol_herb.htm .

    These are good, too.

    http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/items_index/1,1538,HS,00.html

    http://www.healthy.net/asp/templates/center.asp?centerid=24 .

    http://www.johnleemd.net/articles/faq_01.html
      September 10, 2002 5:52 AM BST
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  • Actually, dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is something you really do want to block. As Irene put it, it's one of those "nasty aggresive hormones" that work against your efforts to feminize. Also, it's the main cause of male pattern baldness, and it is also associated with prostate cancer. The very reason I take Propecia is to block DHT. Actually, it reduces the amount of testosterone converted into DHT, as you already mentioned. If you plan to increase your female hormone levels, the levels of male hormones need to be decreased. You can't have two chefs in one kitchen, unless you want a mess. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fashionlab/Images/Smileys/Laugh01.gif However, unlike Spironolactone (US FDA approved) and Cyproterone Acetate (not US FDA approved), Finasteride is not a general anti-androgen. I might add Saw Palmetto to my herbal routine next month, but I didn't want to start with too much at once. Also, I've read in a couple of places that Saw Palmetto actually increases testosterone in males (contrary to things I've read elsewhere), so I've got to get to the bottom of that before I consider using it.

    Of course, SRS or castration would put that mean old DHT in its place, but there's a bit more commitment involved there than with taking a tablet every day.
      September 13, 2002 6:57 AM BST
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  • The more I read about hormones, the more confused I get. Some people suggest that when you increase your estrogen level,that will automatically drop your testerone levels by having shrinking influence on your testes and testerone production. And then some people say, a part of the estrogen may change into testerone. A frightening picture.
    Anyway, I´ll continue with Diane-35 (crypterone + estrogen), which is designed for girls having acne and too many masculine features during their puberty. And that´s where we are, aren´t we?

    hugs

    Laura
      September 13, 2002 7:46 AM BST
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  • Yes, herbals are very confusing, much more so than prescription hormones. I think it's much easier to understand the latter, though. If I were taking those, my daily dosage might look something like this, depending on a doctor's advice:

    Estrogen:
    Estradiol = 8 mg

    Progesterone/Progestin:
    Natural Progesterone USP = 400 mg
    or
    Dydrogesterone = 20 mg
    or
    Medroxyprogesterone Acetate = 10 mg

    Anti-androgens:
    Spironolactone = 200 mg
    and
    Finasteride = 1 mg

    It really depends on what's available in your country, and whether those drugs are sold over-the-counter or by prescription only. Anyway, every time I think I've got a handle on herbals, I read something new that takes me right back to being confused. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fashionlab/Images/Smileys/Laugh01.gif
      September 15, 2002 10:25 AM BST
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  • Hi All,

    One thing I have read and noticed with Saw Palmetto is the increased ejaculate. Your loving spoonful may increase! The DHT blocking effect should help stop development of additional body hair. The ones where you look in the mirror and scream, damn near dislocate a shoulder trying to pluck them too :DD

      September 15, 2002 7:33 PM BST
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  • Has anyone used Suma (as a phytoprogesterone) or Red Clover (as a phytoestrogen)? I'm considering adding these two to my lineup, especially the Red Clover, but I'm still hunting for more information.

    I think I've decided against Saw Palmetto (as a phytoantiandrogen), for now, but the issue is not dead. It seems to have a lot going for it, and I'd love to add an herbal testosterone blocker to my daily routine, but if there's a chance that it will work against the phytoestrogens and/or phytoprogesterones, I'd rather pass on it. The Finasteride will have to do, for the moment. There just aren't many herbal choices in this category, and Finasteride and Spironolactone are very expensive.

    Regarding other popular feminizing (or feminizing-related) herbals, I've found insufficient information for taking any of the following:

    Evening Primrose Oil
    Licorice Root
    Dong Quai
    Coenzyme Q10
    Blue Green Algae

    Some of those are found in women's multi-vitamins in small doses (mine contains 25 mg of Dong Quai per tablet), but I'm not going out of my way to make them part of my routine. If any of you have any good sources to suggest that taking any of these will actually work, please let me know. Also, if you have first hand experience that suggests any of these work, I'd like to know that, too.
      September 23, 2002 2:07 AM BST
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  • i cant answer... i takin nuthin. i know nuthin. i wish i did/
    patience is a virtue, or is it simply a card game, and whos the dealer?
      September 23, 2002 2:18 AM BST
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  • Which store did you use? So far, I've had good experiences with the Vitamin Shoppe.
      September 25, 2002 4:03 AM BST
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  • Earlier this week, I placed my first order (a prescription) through Drugstore.com, so I'll let you know how it goes.

    I've used GNC vitamins, but I think they're over-priced.
      September 26, 2002 5:26 AM BST
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  • Kristina, I placed my Drugstore.com order on 9/23 and they shipped it on 9/26. Of course, they had to get my doctor's prescription, and that was the first time my doctor's office had dealt with an on-line pharmacy. My prescription is now on file with Drugstore.com, so my future orders for the next year should ship faster from the time I place the order. We'll see how long it takes this first order to arrive.

    Vitamin Shoppe is usually pretty quick. I normally get my orders within a few days. They have a good selection of brands in addition to their own, but theirs is usually the least expensive. I really love the Vitamin Shoppe! I get all of my herbals there.

    A close friend recommended both stores, and she's been using them for quite a while. So far, I like them both, but I wouldn't order online if I needed something right away. Sure, you can't beat walking into a local store if you need something ASAP, but as long as you plan at least a week ahead, you shouldn't have any problems with these two on-line stores. The main reason I tried them was because their prices were lower than any other stores' I've found, so far.


    Drugstore.com = http://www.drugstore.com

    Vitamin Shoppe =  http://www.vitaminshoppe.com
      September 27, 2002 11:22 PM BST
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  • Wow, that really is slow! Their (Drugstore.com) shipping cost for my order was only $1.49, and now I know why! The Vitamin Shoppe is much faster. Still, if it's a routine order and you place it ahead of time, Drugstore.com has a good reputation for being a legitimate drugstore, and that's especially important when ordering prescription drugs. I've heard of some on-line stores, especially in other countries, that might not send you what you actually paid for, even though the name and packaging are the same. Reliability is much more more important to me than speed.

    Still, I'm like you, in that I want the speedy delivery, too. All we're asking for is perfection. That's not too much, is it?  http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fashionlab/Images/Smileys/Wink01.gif
      September 29, 2002 4:48 PM BST
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  • This Thai company Medicapharma seems to be supequick: I got my order in four days. Or then we are close to Thailand :)

    hugs

    Laura
      September 30, 2002 12:55 PM BST
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  • I received my Drugstore.com order today. I placed it on 9/23 and asked my doctor's office to send them the prescription, it shipped on 9/26, and it got here on 9/30. Considering the prescription wasn't already on file, I think the speed was reasonable, especially when you consider that the shipping time included a weekend. My order was right, too.
      September 30, 2002 10:40 PM BST
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  • Not yet. I'm just starting my second month and I haven't noticed anything, but I'm not supposed to, at this point.  Exactly what are you taking, Randy?
      October 2, 2002 5:11 PM BST
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  • Hi girls I was wondering if one of you girls ot there could e-mail me a list of all the good ehrable feminzation products that some of you take???  :-/
    Thanks Samantha  :)
      October 2, 2002 10:31 PM BST
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  • samantha
    I used to take black cohosh before i went on perscription estrogen and i still take a phyto estrogen complex because it has other things in it like vitamin e and ginsing you can get them at any healt food store or even wall mart they are really reasonable.

               hope this helps              kelly
      October 2, 2002 11:49 PM BST
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